Kitchen Floor Tile

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  #1  
Old 10-05-07, 11:50 AM
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Kitchen Floor Tile

Just wanted run this by you guys again; slightly different idea.
My kitchen is 3/4 OSB with 2x10 joists, 16" O.C., and 10'-12' is the longest unsupported span. Approx 180 square feet
The tile I'm planning on is 13X13 ceramic and I will put in
4-2"x2" tiles at every other cross section for a diamond-like pattern ( the 4-2" pieces will make up a larger diamond.
To install I plan on:
-adding screws to the OSB on the joists. (also have access from below)
-Putting down warm tiles cables (kit DFT1048, 30-50 sf)
-Trowel a scratch coat to embed the cables with latex mod. thinset. May require 2 coats to get smooth???
-After drying, use the same thinset for Ditra. Then Lay Ditra.
-Put down unmodified dry-set on Ditra for the tiles and lay tiles.

Here are my questions:
1. Thinset over OSB is a no-no, but Schluter said it will be warranted by installing their membrane. I would like to stay with TEC products. Which modified thinset would best to trowel and level 2 coats up to 3/16"-1/4"??? to embed the heat cables and get it smooth over the OSB? Tec Fullflex? Superflex? 3in1?
2. Anyone have experience putting heat cables under Ditra? Any heat loss?
3. Finally, I saw where TEC has a "single layer system" using their 1Flex Mortar that can eliminate the membrane and is OK over OSB. Anyone try this? I called TEC and they said they have not tested it with heat cables or "building it up" by 2 or 3 coats. I am estimating it would be around 1/2in or more high if I would just use the 1Flex. Any thoughts here.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance.
 
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  #2  
Old 10-05-07, 01:03 PM
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Steve

This is different than just installing ditra over osb. Your gonna have a buildup of thinset and rely on that thinset to bond to the osb. Im not comfortable with that. Did you give schluter all the details and did they say ok?

I looked at your other thread. I like tilebri's advice with added ply then slc then the ditra. Its the way Id do it.

Maybe somebody else here will give you the go ahead with this but Im not comfortable with this. Then again Im not gonna use ditra over osb under any circumstances even though schluter says its ok. Id always add plywood as Im not comfortable with the thinset to osb bond. Makes no sense to me that using thinset to set tile to osb is no good but bonding ditra to osb is good. Nope.
 
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Old 10-05-07, 03:29 PM
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If you want to add more plywood that's fine, the more the better.

On the issue of modified thinset sticking to OSB, you guys are wrong. It'll stick just fine. I've never heard of any manufacturer saying their modified thinset will not stick to OSB. What they all say is that you cannot install tiles directly over OSB. That is different. Ditra on OSB works as good as it does with plywood.

Jaz
 
  #4  
Old 10-05-07, 04:07 PM
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I'll agree with you that schluter says its ok ditra over osb, but what I said is its something Im not comfortable with. I just makes no sense to me that the thinset will bond to osb for holding ditra but wont bond to osb for holding tile? Thats maybe something in my head but something Im still not comfortable with and wont do.

My opinion add more plywood 3/8" will do. slc over mats, ditra then tile. I know theres other ways but this would be my approach.
 
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Old 10-05-07, 05:11 PM
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Called Schluter

I called Schluter and talked to one of the field guys. He confirmed that it's OK and said TEC full flex would be fine to embed the wires and set the ditra.
I guess I'm not averse to putting more ply but I'm thinking why???
Has anyone used Ditraset on top?
One final question: We've got lots of kids and spills. I'd like to take the money from not using more ply and use it for better grout. Has anyone used Accucolor XT sanded grout?
How is it's stain resistance? Is it close to epoxy?
I guess that's more than 1 question
Thanks
 
  #6  
Old 10-05-07, 05:42 PM
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Johnny,

Thinset will stick great to OSB, maybe even better than on to plywood? The bond is not the reason you don't want to use OSB as the underlayment for tile. It's because OSB is not as stable as plywood. However, Ditra is the cure for that.

Again, if height or $$ is not a problem, you're always better off adding another layer of plywood to stiffen the sub more.

I haven't used that grout yet, and don't plan on experimenting on a client's floor any time soon. Maybe someone here has?

I agree Full Flex is a premium 'normal' modified, smooth spreading. I use DitraSet all the time. I highly recommend it over Ditra and for Kerdi showers.

Jaz
 
  #7  
Old 10-09-07, 09:16 AM
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Jaz

Its that "not as stable as plywood" that concerns me. I have no doubt that initially thinset will bond to osb but its the long term bond that concerns me. Thinset will also bond to my plastic buckets, tools and even my work truck as well as anything else I happen to get it on.

I am as familiar with the schluter literature as most, and know they say this install is ok. Perhaps you install ditra over osb on a regular basis and therefore are comfortable with the end results. I have not, do not and am not comfortable with it. For the record schluter also says you can install ditra over vinyl flooring but I would not do that either. Point is that many manufacturers push there products as a one size fits all solution. Kinda like the premixed thinset and grout in a bucket stuff. As an installer, you have to evaluate the claims of these manufacturers and make your own decisions about what you are comfortable with and what you are not comfortable with. For the record, I dont see much osb in my work but when I do, I insist on covering it with more plywood or in some cases cbu. No tile over osb, no slc over osb but ditra is ok?? I dunno. In the end perhaps schluter is right but in the end if theres a failure and Im the installer it will come out of my pocket, maybe not all of it but some of it.

Jaz you did teach me a lesson though, and that is exactly why I participate in boards like this. The lesson I learned is that if a manufacturer says its ok, maybe its not a good idea to challenge the manufacturers claims just because its something Im not comfortable with. Better to say nothing and perhaps let someone else who does this type install advise the diyer.
 
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Old 10-09-07, 09:34 PM
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Your first line......."Its that "not as stable as plywood" that concerns me." That is the whole point of Ditra. No one every suggested installing tile directly over OSB, it is not recommended by anyone even if you had multiple layers so that it was very stiff.

Also, many relate OSB as that stuff we see at the big box stores, the ones that are around 1/2" thick. Although those are OSB, we never talk about that, we talk about 3/4" t&g subfloor grade exposure 1 OSB. Such as Advantech, which is considered a premium product for subfloors.

Jaz
 
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Old 10-10-07, 11:29 AM
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One last time and I done.

I havent seen any thinsets that list osb as a suitable substrate. Some even go so far as to exclude osb. I even looked at the literature on ditraset. Interestingly enough, I could find no mention of osb. They talk about plywood but not osb.

It could be that thinset manufacturers are saying not to set tile directly to osb, but its not clear from the literature they publish that this is the case. Definitely conflicting info between thinset manufacturers and schluter.

I havent come up against Advantec, but from what I hear its a great product. Some of the osb's I have seen appear to have waxy oily films and I cant imagine a good thinset bond. Do you remove the oil/wax first or does the thinset bond to it?

Ive done some research on this topic in the last few days, and apparently there are installers out there putting ditra over osb, so maybe Im in the minority. Who knows maybe the next time I see osb I'll think ditra??
 
  #10  
Old 10-10-07, 02:01 PM
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TEC's "single floor system" using 1Flex thinset is approved and warranted over OSB and does not require a membrane. I was very interested in this although I haven't been able to find anyone that's done this. TEC also couldn't tell me anything about using heat cable with the 1Flex or building it up an inch or so to embed the cables.

Some OSB have a sealed side??

I haven't looked into the Ditraset yet but I thought it was more for setting the tiles to the Ditra??

I guess the main thing is Schluter does stand behind this system. I wonder if anyone's had problems with warranty claims or if there are many.
 
  #11  
Old 10-10-07, 02:38 PM
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Steve

I use tec thinsets all the time and was not aware that they have a thinset that can be used over osb. I just checked their website for 1 flex. The product data sheet doesnt list osb as a suitable substrate. Curious, did you talk to them to get this info or am I missing something on their website.

I also saw the other day on their website that tec's slc ez-level can be used over osb. I have used their slc many times but never over osb. I didnt know you could til a few days ago.

I havent used the ditraset but my understanding is that its a dryset mortar. If you need modified for plywood subfloors etc they have an addmix that you use instead of water. I believe ditraset is for bedding the ditra and setting the tiles.
 
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Old 10-10-07, 03:16 PM
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Steve

Just noticed your comment about 1" thinset buildup. You'll only need about 1/4" to cover the cable system if its the one Im thinking of. No where near 1". Strips get attached to the floor, cable goes in strips and gets locked down with clips, then thinset or slc over that. My recollection is total height to cover the cables is about 1/4".
 
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Old 10-11-07, 03:16 PM
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Steve,

I to think you're mistaken about going over OSB with 1Flex, (or any thinset), for the purpose of installing tiles directly to it. Don't know where you got that.

Jaz
 
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Old 10-13-07, 05:54 AM
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I know I saw it.

I couldn't find it on their website but a local tile store had a pamphlet from TEC promoting the system. I'll find it and try to scan it in.

You're right on the build-up it shouldn't be more than 1/2"??
A 1/4 inch to bury cables and 1/4 inch to set Ditra.
 
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Old 10-13-07, 08:57 PM
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The heat mats I've seen are about 1/8" total installed. Ditra too is 1/8" total installed. The thinset in the Ditra installation takes no space.

As for IFlex, you have to go with Tec's directions which is NO to tile on OSB.

Jaz
 
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Old 10-14-07, 08:35 AM
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I used the xt for the first time about 2 weeks ago. Made a patty out of the remaining mix in the bucket and let it cure for a week. I placed quarter sized drops of yellow mustard, bbq sauce, spag sauce, tea, and juice. Let it all sit 5 minutes and just wiped it away. You couldn't find any trace that anything had ever been on the grout. Custom makes Prism grout which is also highly resistant to staining and comes in a larger color pallet.
 
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Old 10-22-07, 08:14 AM
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Thanks for the info Tilebri. How did the grout go down /clean?
I'm really considering this as an alternative to epoxy (I know, epoxy is a different animal) and save some money.

Jaz, I know the TEC website does not list this info, but I had the paper from TEC that showed OSB, then 1Flex, then tiles. They called it the single floor system and no membrane was necessary. It was guaranteed by TEC. I'll find it and post it.
 
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Old 10-25-07, 07:56 AM
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OK, I called TEC support and they have the info that they can fax; no email. It is called the "Single Floor System" uses TEC 1Flex over 3/4 OSB/Plywood, no membrane needed, warrantied by TEC. I'm not advocating the system but it seemed interesting and ran contradictory to everything I've read. I'm sure the document will tell more.

One huge drawback: The cheapest I've been able to find
1flex in 35lb bag is $136
I think the membrane would be cheaper
 
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Old 10-25-07, 09:47 AM
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Two years ago I did a small outdoor front porch with quartzite for a customer I'd done several jobs for in the past. Since I always try to do work better than the next guy, I researched what might be the best system to use up here in Michigan that would survive our winters. I decided on 1Flex. I didn't ask the price when I picked the materials up, assuming it might be just a little more than Tec's Super Flex. I had charged the customer $90 for 2 bags thinking I was covered.

Got the invoice a few days later....YIKES...holy crap, $94 per bag. Today it costs me almost $107, so $136 to a DIY'r isn't bad, white is a little more. How many would like me to send you?

Jaz
 
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Old 10-26-07, 07:36 PM
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I thought they had made a mistake. If I would need 4 bags that would be almost $560!!!!! I bet it is good stuff but not for my application.

By the way Jaz, how many tile forums are you on? At least 3 that I've seen.
 
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Old 10-26-07, 08:23 PM
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It's super sticky stuff. Ever see the Three Stooges mixing glue and getting all over? Spreads kinda like loose chewing gum, sticks and ruins everything.....tools and clothes I mean.

I'm registered on 10 forums, but spend most of the time that I'm available on only 5.

Jaz
 
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Old 10-27-07, 07:14 AM
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Wow.
One last question, In using the modified thinset to embed the cables, for ease of speading/leveling, would you recommend TEC superflex/fullflex/sturdiflex?
I'd like to stay with TEC.
Thanks
 
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Old 10-27-07, 10:26 PM
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Any of them will be fine. I certainly don't see any need for SuperFlex though. I forget, and don't feel like reading everything again, but are you installing Ditra too? Adding more plywood first?

Jaz
 
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Old 10-29-07, 07:49 AM
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Ditra-yes. Plywood-no. I think I'll go with the fullflex. Have any tips for keeping it evel over the floor where there are no heat cables? I was think of putting some cable stapping pieces down as a guide and using a large drywall spreader??
Thanks
 
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