thinset mortar recipe


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Old 04-05-08, 02:40 PM
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thinset mortar recipe

I'm preparing 2 inch tongue-and-groove timber flooring for 306 x 306 x 7 mm ceramic tiling, and have 1200 x 1800 x 6 mm sheets of Hardy Tile and Slate Underlay board to nail to the timber flooring.
Apparently no one in New Zealand has ever heard of 'thinset mortar'. Is a recipe available for making thinset mortar from cement and sand? Thanks for your advice.
(I've bought one 200 gram bag of a Cemix(NZ) product called 'Mortar Flex Plus', but I'm not sure if it will help.)
 
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Old 04-05-08, 03:26 PM
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...forgot to say...

that the mortar is needed only to fill very small depressions(1 or 2 millimeters) between the timber flooring and the rough underside of the Hardy Tile and Slate Underlay Board, to be nailed down generously. A lady at Hardy's technical phone support suggested using solvent based glue, like Liquid Nails or Maxbond, or using no glue at all...just nails.
 
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Old 04-06-08, 02:27 PM
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Hello,

Can't you just order your thinset over the web? It comes as dry powder and you add water to mix.

I'm not sure what the product is that you've purchased, but the Flex Plus refers to a latex additive for strength and flexibility.

Connie
 
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Old 04-06-08, 02:31 PM
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Lee, I found this on a post at the John Bridge Tile Forum:

4237 contains latex, retardants, and tactifyers. All that is needed to make thinset is to add sand and cement in a 1:1 ratio. This can be accomplished with Laticrete 211 Crete filler powder. 211 is nothing more than ANSI approved graded aggregates and portland cement, in a 1:1 ratio.

Does that help?
 
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Old 04-06-08, 04:01 PM
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Apparently no one in New Zealand has ever heard of 'thinset mortar'.
Now there's a statement beyond my comprehension. Thinset tile mortars are everywhere including New Zealand. I know of a few people that live in New Zealand and participate on the same forums I do, they have never said anything about "no thinset in New Zealand." It's news to me.


A lady at Hardy's technical phone support suggested using solvent based glue, like Liquid Nails or Maxbond, or using no glue at all...just nails.
I'm going to take-issue with that statement also I think. If by "Hardy Tile" you are referring to Hardiebacker tile underlayment made by the James Hardie Company then that statement goes against everything Hardie has to say in their recommendations. Find that recommendation on their website and direct me to it will you please.

I'm preparing 2 inch tongue-and-groove timber flooring for 306 x 306 x 7 mm ceramic tiling, and have 1200 x 1800 x 6 mm sheets of Hardy Tile and Slate Underlay board to nail to the timber flooring.
This procedure is also NOT RECOMMENDED by anyone in the industry I'm aware of. Installing cement board tilebacker directly over dimensional lumber is never recommended. Where are you getting all of this information?
 
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Old 04-06-08, 07:42 PM
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I don't even think a big box store employee would say that..
 
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Old 04-06-08, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by connie View Post
Lee, I found this on a post at the John Bridge Tile Forum:

4237 contains latex, retardants, and tactifyers. All that is needed to make thinset is to add sand and cement in a 1:1 ratio. This can be accomplished with Laticrete 211 Crete filler powder. 211 is nothing more than ANSI approved graded aggregates and portland cement, in a 1:1 ratio.

Does that help?
Hi Connie:
Yes, that does help. Whether I can find, or whether I should even try to add cellulose water retention compounds, such as carboxy methyl celllulose or hydroxy propyl hydroxy ethyl cellulose is yet to be decided. I now have to reply to Bud, who says I can find thinset mortar here in NZ.
Thanks.
 
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Old 04-06-08, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Now there's a statement beyond my comprehension. Thinset tile mortars are everywhere including New Zealand. I know of a few people that live in New Zealand and participate on the same forums I do, they have never said anything about "no thinset in New Zealand." It's news to me.




I'm going to take-issue with that statement also I think. If by "Hardy Tile" you are referring to Hardiebacker tile underlayment made by the James Hardie Company then that statement goes against everything Hardie has to say in their recommendations. Find that recommendation on their website and direct me to it will you please.



This procedure is also NOT RECOMMENDED by anyone in the industry I'm aware of. Installing cement board tilebacker directly over dimensional lumber is never recommended. Where are you getting all of this information?
Thanks for your answers, Bud.

1. Today I've phoned Placemakers, ITM, and Bunnings, 3 of the most obvious NZ building supply retailers in NZ. None of them has found any thinset mortar yet. I'll keep searching.

2. I could send you the .pdf file supplied by Hardy for installation of their 'Tile and Slate Underlay Board', or the link to that .pdf installation manual is at:
http://www.jameshardie.co.nz/index.p...i_productid/23

3. If thinset mortar over the timber flooring, and under the Hardy Tile and Slate Underlay Board, with nails, is not recommended, could you please tell me your recommendation?
Thanks.
 
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Old 04-06-08, 09:22 PM
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OK, you have caused me to learn something today. I now know that James Hardie has (at least) TWO websites, one for you and one for me.

Obviously the New Zealand codes are not the same as the U.S. codes. For example on the New Zealand website they make the following statement:
"Notes
1. James Hardie Underlays are suitable as a substrate for tiles over internal timber, particle board or plywood floors in wet and dry areas. For tiling of walls use Villaboard® Lining."


However on the U.S. website the only acceptable substrate is 5/8 exterior grade plywood or 23/32 OSB exposure1.

NOTHING (tile wise) is recommended to go over particleboard in the U.S.

The problem with installing Hardiebacker over dimensional lumber is that the lumber is unstable and the Hardiebacker has no structural value. The lumber will expand and contract in all directions disrupting the thin Hardiebacker as it goes.

I found other discrepancies in their statements between the two websites.

Also in the U.S. version you won't find anywhere that they recommend the use of Liquid Nails (or the like) to install their product. Hardiebacker is to be installed in a bed of thinset.


A few hours ago I sent a message to a guy I know in New Zealand that is in the flooring business to ask him "What's the deal". I'm curious to hear what he has to say.
 
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Old 04-07-08, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post

The problem with installing Hardiebacker over dimensional lumber is that the lumber is unstable and the Hardiebacker has no structural value. The lumber will expand and contract in all directions disrupting the thin Hardiebacker as it goes.



Also in the U.S. version you won't find anywhere that they recommend the use of Liquid Nails (or the like) to install their product. Hardiebacker is to be installed in a bed of thinset.
Bud, the main reason I balked at Hardy NZ's solvent adhesive application recommendation was because of concern for residual solvent fumes...and also for the dose of fumes I'd get during the application. In contrast, I love the smell of fresh mortar in the morning("it smells like 'victory'").

This afternoon, I phoned what I believe is NZ's largest masonry supplier, Firth, and the guy I spoke to had never heard the term 'thinset mortar'. He referred me to Dricon which, I believe, is NZ's largest supplier of cement products.
Maxine, in Dricon's technical section, also was unfamiliar with the term 'thinset mortar', but she's promised to investigate, and may help me find some, and she said she would contact one of Dricon's suppliers in Australia.

But if thinset mortar over dimensional timber, and under Hardy Tile & Slate Underlay board still won't solve the eventual, catastrophic loss of tiling above, maybe I'm just wasting my time, and should just try to sell the $600 worth of Spanish tiles stacked in a back bedroom...
Thanks again.
 
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Old 04-07-08, 04:40 AM
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Lee,

Having the dimensional lumber is not a "deal breaker" for tile. It just means you will need to install plywood or an isolation membrane, before thinset, backerboard and tile.
 
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Old 04-07-08, 12:52 PM
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Connie, the Hardy NZ installation manual does mention the use of a waterproofing membrane over the Hardy board, before application of the solvent-based adhesive, in wet areas, and under the Hardy board where marble tile is used as the final flooring. For marble, Hardy NZ recommends pouring a 30 mm minimum thickness bed of mortar, reinforced with 50 x 50 x 2.5 mm galvanized mesh, over the waterproofing membrane, and that 30 mm bed of reinforced mortar does start to create a more bulletproof mental image for me. Plywood, applied to that mental image, is not helping to calm me, though maybe it should; the status of plywood, in the NZ manual, seems to be only equal to the status of particle board.
The truth is that I'd be happier with some type of seamless, synthetic flooring, rather than the tiles, so maybe I should just try to cut my losses on those tiles and try for some seamless flooring.
Thanks.
 
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Old 04-07-08, 03:09 PM
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My sources in NZ are telling me that Mapei International is there. Mapei is a major-player in the industry. I see now that NZ may be referring to the (U.S. thinset) using a different term.

I would also think that Laticrete International (another major-player) would also be there but haven't heard back on them yet.

The thing that amazes me is the difference in the methods
another major-player like James Hardie Company would foist upon different countries. In the U.S. most of the testing is done and rules are written under the guidance of our TCNA (Tile Council of North America) in association with ANSI (American National Standards Institute). There are many horror stories in the U.S. of tile installation failures due to people doing exactly what you are suggesting and what Hardie has suggested to you. I don't get it. Both countries have tile, both countries have structures, both countries have wood, both countries have climatic changes that effect all things.

It is way beyond me why Hardie would not use the same basic information and standards across the board.
 
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Old 04-07-08, 06:28 PM
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Bud, Mark Besagre at Mapei NZ sent me .pdf data sheets on Ultrabond, Kerabond Plus, Ultraflex S2 Mono, and Isolastic.
Ultrabond is a polyurethane adhesive for wooden flooring.
Kerabond Plus and Ultraflex S2 Mono descriptions both suggest tile adhesives, but possibly they could be related to thinset mortar. Isolastic is an elasticizer additive for cement mixes.
I've asked Mark if any Mapei product is thinset mortar. The data sheets for the 4 products above refer to another Mapei product called Karafloor.
Thanks, and I'll report back with updates from Mark Basagre.
 
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Old 04-08-08, 02:55 PM
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In the U.S. Kerabond is a dryset tile mortar dryset meaning it has no additives and is not considered to be a modified thinset in this country. Ultraflex 2 is a modified tile thinset adhesive. They are both cement based products.

I don't recognize any of the other names. Typically the Ultraflex 2 is what you would want to use for installing your tile. The Kerabond could be used to install the Hardiebacker but the truth is both of those products could be used to install the Hardiebacker.
 
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Old 04-08-08, 08:04 PM
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Here's the text of today's email from Mapei NZ's Mark Besagre:

"Hi Lee,
Mapei tile and natural stone adhesive are all thin set mortar (adhesive).
As you will notice under the TECHNICAL CHARARCTERISCTICS in the relevant technical data sheet Kearbond Plus is compose of cement, fine-grade sand, synthetic resin and special additive according to the formula developed in the MAPEI research laboratories.
Kearbond Plus hardens without noticeable shrinkage to become extremely resistant, adhering perfectly to all the convectional material used for bonding.
The exact chemical formulation is not available.
We trust that this answers your concerns on this matter.
Thanks
Mark Basagre"
 
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Old 04-09-08, 03:19 PM
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Lee,

You aren't trying to get someone to give up a proprietary recipe are you? You can forget that if that's what you're thinking. I know the necessary products are there somewhere. My information now is that Laticrete is also in NZ. If you can't find some everyday tile thinset you would be in one of the few places that doesn't have it.

I'm still puzzled over the variances in the Hardie information, that's kind of a bummer and a disappointment.
 
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Old 04-09-08, 06:14 PM
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Hi Bud:
No, I was trying to solve an apparent inadequacy of supply, by making my own thinset mortar. I still am not sure if the Mapei products are thinset mortars, or tile adhesives, so this morning, I found and phoned a New Zealand Laticrete agent in Howick(Auckland), and he's sending me a 20 kilogram bag of Laticrete 'Gold', for NZ$45 + NZ$18 freight.
I asked him if he had the Laticrete Platinum, but he knew only about the Gold, so that sounded OK to me.
To find that agent, I had googled 'Laticrete' for 'pages from New Zealand only', and that search was after I saw a guy in Christchurch on the trademe.co.nz auction website offering a Laticrete Tile Adhesive(335, I think). I may buy that guy's adhesive, too, because he has a 'buy now' price of NZ$22(plus unknown freight from Christchurch).
When the Hardy board is down, then I'll decide whether to continue with the tiling plan, or whether to use vinyl or something else.
 
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Old 04-09-08, 06:45 PM
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Hi Lee,

I have to say after all you've done to locate the right materials, it would be a pity if you didn't tile!
 
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Old 04-09-08, 08:55 PM
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Hi Connie:
You're right. I should at least attempt the tiling, so I'll put down an experimental 4 tiles, and see if they survive, before proceeding cautiously.
 
 

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