Laying ceramic tile over linoleum--?

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-02-08, 11:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Baytown Texas
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Cool Laying ceramic tile over linoleum--?

I have ceramic tile throughout my home, except a bathroom.
It has a nice linoleum fllor that appears to be very substansial, & nay be hard to remove.
I want to put ceramic tile OVER this existing floor, & have read 2 posts on this, one pro & one con.
Can I lay the tile over it, & what do I need to do--?
IF-I have to remove the old linoleum, what is the best way--?

I sure hate to go to the trouble of removing the floor if I can get by without it.
Being in my 60's, it would not have to last "forever"-?

Any help appreciated!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-02-08, 03:33 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
We have a sticky on this:

http://forum.doityourself.com/floori...wont-work.html

You're taking a chance if you don't pull up the old floor
 
  #3  
Old 12-02-08, 03:47 PM
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: WI/MN
Posts: 19,414
Received 62 Votes on 58 Posts
We put ceramic down over vinyl in our rentals if the vinyl is on cement. It's not a good idea, but it works out ok.
 
  #4  
Old 12-02-08, 04:01 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Baytown Texas
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sure would like more info on this--
Maybe specific reasons?
Thank you so much!
 
  #5  
Old 12-02-08, 04:31 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Did you read the thread I posted? It gives pretty good details.
 
  #6  
Old 12-02-08, 04:37 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Baytown Texas
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Nope-not sure how to find it--
New to this site!
 
  #7  
Old 12-02-08, 04:58 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
CLICK HERE!


............................................
 
  #8  
Old 12-07-08, 04:38 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Omaha
Posts: 1
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I put tile over vinyl several years ago. Was told by two tile centers that i could do so. Laid 1/4" cement board over with lots of PL400 and many screws. Has worked for three years so far, no cracks, no creaking.
 
  #9  
Old 12-07-08, 04:48 PM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dglenn View Post
I put tile over vinyl several years ago. Was told by two tile centers that i could do so. Laid 1/4" cement board over with lots of PL400 and many screws. Has worked for three years so far, no cracks, no creaking.

That is also against all manufacturer instructions.....
 
  #10  
Old 12-07-08, 09:20 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,607
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Glenn,

You did not install tile over vinyl, you installed tile over a 1/4" cement board. And as Mark just suggested, the cement backer was installed wrong too if you used PL 400 out of a tube.

Doesn't mean it's going to fail anytime soon, but it wasn't done correctly.

Jaz
 
  #11  
Old 12-08-08, 06:17 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,549
Received 24 Votes on 23 Posts
I read David Taylor's reasoning on the link provided. While I agree that tile directly over vinyl is not a good idea, I know that tile over backerboard over vinyl works fine. no thinset under the backer board, just screws. I did that in a high traffic area and it lasted more than 15 years without a problem.

Taylor uses the phrase "not approved" several times in his post. Not approved by whom? Unless it's specifically mandated by code, installation practices and materials are usually developed by manufacturers and trade groups and recommended as the best method. That doesn't mean that it is the only method. In some cases certain materials or methods may be required by the manufacturer to meet warranty but I don't think that applies here.

For the OP, here's my suggestion if you absolutely don't want to pull up old vinyl. Assuming the floor structure is stiff and sound, scuff it up with a belt sander. Install the tile over the vinyl using mastic instead of thinset. I think you'll get better adhesion. I've used mastic over laminate countertops and it worked great.

I look at it as what's the worst that can happen? Cracked tile or more likely cracked grout lines? Ifg you're willing to accept that chance- go for it. The house isn't going to fall down around your ears.
 
  #12  
Old 12-08-08, 10:49 AM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
no thinset under the backer board, just screws.
Against all cement board manufacturer instructions. All companies REQUIRE the board to be installed in a bed of thinset. This eliminates any voids underneith the backerboard which would result in movement.

Taylor uses the phrase "not approved" several times in his post. Not approved by whom?
ANSI standards or the CTIA, or MIA do not approve of it. These are all the groups of people who develope the "standard" to ensure tile lasts a very long time, not just a few years.

Install the tile over the vinyl using mastic instead of thinset. I think you'll get better adhesion.
Ok, you are starting to scare me here......mastic has no place on a floor installation. I would only use mastic for a backsplash, if that. Mastic takes weeks to cure, and the adhesive can turn back into poo if it gets wet.

I look at it as what's the worst that can happen? Cracked tile or more likely cracked grout lines?
Yeah, everyone would like to tear out all the tile they just installed and spend more money the second time around then if they did it correctly the first time.
 
  #13  
Old 12-08-08, 03:09 PM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,505
Received 4 Votes on 4 Posts
It is really not right to give advice about an installation based on one installation that was done wrong but did not fail. The Tile Council of North America (TCNA) does extensive testing of products and methods relating to tile installation and gives guidance based on the results of such tests. We should not be giving out advice based on unapproved methods that have higher risks of failure. It costs just as much in time and money to do it wrong than it does to do it right. If and when it fails, it'll cost even more. When folks come here looking for answers, we should give them the right answers. After all, isnt that the reason they come to boards like this in the first place, to get the right answers.
 
  #14  
Old 10-06-10, 10:11 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: US
Posts: 19
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Okay ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry to do this, but I had to register here to shed some light on this.

Some background, I am a Union tile installer with years of field experience, more certifications than you can shake a stick at, and a very good grasp of applicapable ANSI, TCNA, etc. standards required for the installation of tile and stone.

There is no place, anywhere, where it is stated that you cannot lay ceramic over linoleum. Period. Every manufacturer makes products which meet the technical specifications required of a thinset capable of bonding to a laminate surface. I personally recommend Mapei's Kerabond/Keralastic system, which I have used directly over linoleum on tile installs over 10 years ago, and they have not failed.

Following is information on this subject from the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) website regarding vinyl as a substrate

Can I tile over vinyl?

We are often asked if it is OK to tile over sheet vinyl. The answer requires more than a simple yes or no.

Most manufacturers’ of tile cement (thinset) have developed a specialty thinset for setting tile that bonds well to sheet vinyl. However, as with all tile installations, the entire subfloor below the tile is important – not only the layer to which the tile is bonded.

To tile over sheet vinyl the following is generally recommended by most mortar manufacturers:

1) The sheet vinyl must be clean and free of wax or other bond breakers

2) The sheet vinyl must be single layer only and well attached

3) It should not be perimeter glued (it often is!) and it should not have a cushion or foam back.

4) The subfloor below the sheet vinyl must deflect less than the industry standard L/360 deflection criteria.

In all cases, we do not recommend straying from manufacturer’s recommendations – you must check with the mortar manufacturer for their specific installation and product advice.



As you see the subfloor is the critical component. If you know nothing about deflection rates and the like, talk with someone at a local home improvement store and ask for the technical specifications related to the specific material your subfloor is made of.
 
  #15  
Old 10-07-10, 02:38 PM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,505
Received 4 Votes on 4 Posts
Welcome Shotty

Good to have someone new here thats knowledgable.

There is no place, anywhere, where it is stated that you cannot lay ceramic over linoleum. Period. Every manufacturer makes products which meet the technical specifications required of a thinset capable of bonding to a laminate surface.
Yep

1) The sheet vinyl must be clean and free of wax or other bond breakers

2) The sheet vinyl must be single layer only and well attached

3) It should not be perimeter glued (it often is!) and it should not have a cushion or foam back.
Yep, and therein lies the problem. This is a site for diy'ers, not pros. You may have the skills to determine if its cushion backed, perimeter glued, well attached etc, but the average diy'er doesn't. Most don't know what they have. For that reason, its not a real good idea to go ahead and do it. Additionally, if you have the experience you claim to have (I don't doubt that you do) you also know that there is no way to know for sure how well the vinyl is bonded to the subfloor, and if bonding issues will be a problem down the road. I have certainly seen failures over vinyl, and I'm sure you have seen a few in your day as well.

Just my 2 cents.
 
  #16  
Old 10-07-10, 09:32 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: US
Posts: 19
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Heres Johnhy,

I don't disagree with you at all about the issues relating to bonding, though edge gluing is much less common then the TCNA states in my area of the country due to to freeze thaw cycles. I typically recommend screwing rather than relying on the bond of whatever cutback was used to install the linoleum. Every six inches provides plenty of coverage.

I would agree that there are more than a few failures over linoleum, and to be honest, I'd prefer someone pay me to do the work LoL. At the same time, I think it's important that people, especially DIYers do their homework and research. Ask questions of the people supplying their materials, and get suggestions not only from us, but from people who are available in case something isn't working out right.

I do a lot of DIY work outside my field, and I can say research prior to beginning any project is by far the most important part of any project.

Thanks for your comments as well, very insightful, and I must admit it makes sense considering the audience and their level of experience versus that of a professional tile installer.
 
  #17  
Old 10-08-10, 09:52 AM
HotxxxxxxxOKC's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 8,044
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Welcome Shotty!

You got a first name we can call ya? My name is Mark, and if this site was run by a competent person, we could put our names in a Signature line, but they turned off that feature.

Where abouts in the U.S. are you?
 
  #18  
Old 10-08-10, 03:46 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: US
Posts: 19
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Mark,

My given name is Jason, and I'm from Milwaukee, or rather, a suburb of it that you've likely never heard of.

I noticed in your profile that you're an OSHA inspector. I just got my 30 hour last year, and here's to not seeing any of your co-workers on any of the jobsites I'm at for a long long time!
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: