Replacing kitchen parque floors with tile

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Old 02-24-09, 01:35 PM
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Replacing kitchen parque floors with tile

Hey all.

I'm in the process of renovating my kitchen and decided to do the floor as well. The prev owner had 6" parque wood tiles down and we'd like to go with ceramic. It appears the tiles are laid over linoleum floor (and it seems like some kind of MDF substance under the radiator). Both are glued down with some dark brown adhesive.

What's the process from here with regards to preparing the floor for the cementboard? How much of the glue do I need to get up?

Below is the picture of the area I pulled up to see what it looks like. You can see all the dark brown which is the adhesive. Some of the stuff pulled up under the radiator is some kind of MDF tile that the wood parque was attached to.

Just an FYI: The house was built in the mid 1950s



Thanks,

Fish
 
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Old 02-24-09, 01:49 PM
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You need to remove the parquet floor, the vinyl and the mdf/particle board underlayment. Then tell us what you have left for a subfloor, how many layers and the thickness of each layer.
 
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Old 02-24-09, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
You need to remove the parquet floor, the vinyl and the mdf/particle board underlayment. Then tell us what you have left for a subfloor, how many layers and the thickness of each layer.
Will do. I just updated my post with an image (above) but will try to go further now to see whats goin on. Thx.
 
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Old 02-24-09, 03:28 PM
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Hey there.

So I dug a little deeper (literally). There appears to be 2 layers of old flooring on the floor. So it appears to be:

Parque Wood Tiles
Linoleum or Vinyl Rolled Flooring (white)
Linoleum or Vinyl Rolled Flooring (reddish)

Below that (or part of the red flooring) is a layer that looks like tarpaper of somekind (does that make sense)? Hopefully not asbestos

Then I hit wood and looking at the grain it doesn't seem to be the tongue & groove sub-floor that diagonally runs the length of my house (seen from basement utility room underneath kitchen). So probably a layer a plywood (not sure how thick)

When chopping I can see that it will be hard to get the reddish floor up without damaging the ply.

Any feedback is appreciated.
 
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Old 02-24-09, 03:43 PM
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Oops, I left out some important information

T&G boards are 3/4" thick with a layer of Ply that is about 3/4 to 1" thick over it. Hard to tell for sure without drilling.

The subfloor is over 2x8 joists spaced 16" apart.

Thanks!
 
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Old 02-24-09, 04:05 PM
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If the ply is 3/4-1", thats a good thing.

Do you happen to know the unsupported span of those joists? By that I mean, the distance each joist spans before it is supported by a post, wall, foundation, etc underneith.

Having scratches and gouges on the ply isn't a major concern.
 
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Old 02-24-09, 04:10 PM
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Hey Mark,
May I feel like you answer all my question Thanks again for the response.

The kitchen is about 14x12. The 12' is the direction of the joists. So the unsupported span is 12' I believe.

I cant seem to figure out if their is a 3rd layer of flooring. The red layer(3/32" thick) and the layer (1/16") below that has tar-ish substance on the bottom may be one layer or 2 different layers.

In all seriousness, what would asbestos look like if I should be concerned about it.

Thx

Fish
 
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Old 02-24-09, 04:21 PM
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When was this house built?

Asbestos has not been used since the 60's, and even abaiting it now is not a major concern.

It takes a huge amount of exposure of asbestos to have health affects. I would tear all the flooring up at once. Take a circular saw and cut it into sections.

The kitchen is about 14x12. The 12' is the direction of the joists. So the unsupported span is 12' I believe.
Not neccessarily. Those same joists that run through the kitchen may run into another room.

If your unsupported span is truly 12', that is not good. Your floor deflects to much which would cause your tile to fail.

What does this all mean? Well, to have a long lasting installation, I would:

a. Add supports to your joists to shorten the unsupported span

b. sister your floor joists
 
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Old 02-24-09, 04:55 PM
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House was built in 1952. I'm not sure I can remove it all at once, the bottom layer seems very brittle.

I just went down to the basement... It's actually an 11 feet span between the the 2 foundation walls. I can't add supports down there because that room will probaby be converted into an office in a few years. (Oh I can just imagine the noise from the kids toys while playing on the kitchen floor. )

I could sister the joists though I'd have to remove the cross braces (2 short pieces of wood that form an X between the joists) at about the midpoint of the span.

If the deflection is a concern, we were throwing around the idea of doing hardwood flooring to match the rest of the house, though I think being so high traffic it would get mess up quickly. We also have a dark stain on our wood floors which shows scuffs easily.

Thx again
 
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Old 02-25-09, 02:52 PM
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Also, would I have to sister up every joist or could I get away with doing every other one.

When a BX line is passing through a joist, can I notch the sister joist to fit the new board in next to the other one? or do I have to remove the bx line. (may be a problem if it runs up the wall.

Thanks again

Dave
 
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Old 02-25-09, 03:24 PM
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You can knotch it. If you choose to go this route, use good construction adhesive and nails/screws.
 
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Old 02-25-09, 03:55 PM
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Thx. So even at 11ft span (not 12) its still to big of a distance for 2x8s?

And just to follow up, I'd have to do each one I guess, right?

Thx

Dave
 
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Old 02-25-09, 04:07 PM
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11' span will work for ceramic or porcelain tile without any joist modifications.
 
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Old 02-25-09, 04:25 PM
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Oh man. thats good news. that saves me a lot of trouble. Would it be a good idea to maybe sister up a few of them maybe every 3 or so just to be safe? or does that not make a difference?

So basically same drill as my bathroom renovation. Get the floor as flat as possible and screw in 1/4" cementboard, offset seams, patch seams, lay tile, right? Do I need to worry about how clean I can get the floor. seems that layer of plywood is going tough to get clean b/c of what seems to be a layer of tarpaper of some kind. IS that possible?

Thx

Fish
 
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Old 02-25-09, 04:36 PM
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Man.... you know what. I just went down and remeasured the distance again. It turns out that I had measured the distance between the 2 walls when in actuality there is a step outward at the top of each wall, making the span between supports 11' 7".

I'm assuming thats not good news What do you think.

Thanks again,

Dave
 
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Old 02-25-09, 04:42 PM
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It's borderline.

Just because it's borderline, doesn't mean your tile WILL fail, just it has a higher chance. You also may never have a problem with it.

I would sister the joists just to be safe. Your main concern is the center portion of the joists, where most of the flexing can occur.
 
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Old 02-25-09, 05:08 PM
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Thanks Mark,

Cant hurt to sister them I guess. Though it may be tough to get 11'7" boards in there around the gas and water lines. Dumb question, but it does have to be the entire length, right? I can't attach in an 8' length in the middle, right?

Thx

Fish
 
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Old 02-25-09, 06:02 PM
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You can attach 8' centered on the joist and it will definetly help.
 
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Old 02-25-09, 06:09 PM
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Interesting. I'll try to get 11' lengths in there, but will cut them down if they don't fit.

Will report back how this goes in a few days. Thanks so much.

Dave
 
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Old 02-25-09, 06:13 PM
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Good luck Dave! Chime back in with your questions.
 
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Old 02-26-09, 04:09 PM
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I started tearing up the floor today. The parque and first layer of linoleum come up very easily. Its like its not even stuck to the second layer of linoleum.

The second layer is really adhered to the plywood and is very brittle. (see attached pics). Is it possible to install the cement board on top of that thin layer of linoleum? Or do I spend the extra time and get it up. Have you ever come across a tar-like substance used as adhesive from houses built in the 50s?







Thanks

Fish
 
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Old 02-26-09, 04:41 PM
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The adhesive is very common, we often call it "cutback."

I would really like it if you removed it all, so you can determine the condition of your subfloor.

The cement backer board also needs to be laid in a bed of thinset AND scrwed. Many people, including the knuckle heads on those DIY shows, never do this.
 
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Old 02-26-09, 04:53 PM
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Thanks Mark,

It seems 1/2 of kitchen 2nd layer of linoluem was glued to the first layer. I was just able tp pull it up for a while. now Its much harder. I guess I'll try to get that other layer off too.. its really on there and comes off in 2-3" pieces unfortunately. (edit: and its nailed down on top of that......ugh)

Yes I will most certainly be setting the cementboard with thinset and screws (same as my bathroom)


Dave
 
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Old 02-26-09, 05:06 PM
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Your sisters dont have to go the full length. The middle 2/3 is all you need so 8' will be good. You can use 2x6's as well, and align them with the bottom of the existing joists. Use construction adhesive or full spread glue, and lots of screws or nails.

Remove all the lino and as much of the cutback as you can. The objective is to get the floor as flat as possible. You dont have to get it perfect, as the thinset that you bed the cement board in will give you some room for imperfection.

Asbestos wasnt banned until sometime in the 80's. If you are concerned that what you have could contain asbestos, keep in mind that its only a hazzard if its airborne. You can spay it with a mist bottle as you work to keep it from getting airborne. What you have there aint an easy task as you have already found out. Nice to see that you are doing it right though. Too many come here looking for short cuts that'll come back to bite em later.
 
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Old 02-26-09, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fishnyc22 View Post
bathroom)


Dave

Ah! I knew I've helped you before!
 
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Old 02-26-09, 05:16 PM
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Thanks Johnny.

Yeah its definitely not an easy task. between the nails and the cutback Its next to impossible to get up. I pretty much got the parque and first lino up completely in less than a couple of hours. I'm going to be hacking at the 2nd layer for days.

Great news on the joists. Will be much easier to do 8' boards. Though, I also read that I can cut the 12' board in half and put them up tightly at where they meet. I'm surprised you said to align with the bottom of the joist. I would have thought the top. interesting. I plan on using nails and construction adhesive and some screws for sure.
 
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Old 02-26-09, 05:19 PM
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Great news on the joists. Will be much easier to do 8' boards.
See post #18.:moonu:................................
 
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Old 02-26-09, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HotinOKC View Post
See post #18.................................
LOL I know... I'm sorry. I didnt want to be rude

Thanks guys!
 
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Old 02-26-09, 06:22 PM
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Do you guys have any tips to getting this layer off? Specific tools or tricks of the trade? Any help appreciated
 
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Old 02-26-09, 08:31 PM
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Ugh.. So I got all the wood and upper lino up...

I'm not sure I have this in me. The bathroom renovation and tiling gave me carpel tunnel for 3 weeks... I woke up in the middle of the night with both my hands dead asleep... I can feel this project resulting in the same thing.

I spent 2 hrs trying to get up that layer of whatEverTheHellItIs and don't have much to show for it... wow.

So there is NO way to lay the cement board on this thin layer of whatever? I say whatever b/c I don't think its linoleum.. seems way to brittle to be. But its in these 6' wide sheets (see seam below) so I wonder if it was always brittle or if it slowly became that way over 60 years. It appears almost like an old tile material.

You can see from the first image below that even after removing that last layer in one spot that some of the cutback is on the plywood. Can I even lay the thinset on top of that material? Will it adhere?

here are some images of where I'm at: gonna go soak my wrists now





 
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Old 02-27-09, 07:01 AM
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Whats under this layer? If its a second layer of plywood or some other underlayment it should probably go anyway.
 
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Old 02-27-09, 09:05 AM
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Basically what I have here (from the top down) after removing the parque and 2 layers of linoleum is

1 layer of lino or some other brittle sheets
Cutback Adhesive
Plywood
T&G Boards laid diagonal (across entire span of house)
Joists

I guess I could try to get the plywood up, but there are a lot of nails in the layer of lino that go through to the T&G. so its not gonna be easy.

I'm gonna go get a better mask from HD and maybe a pry-bar and see what I can do. I hope I can get the ply up without damaging the T&G boards.

Thanks
 
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Old 02-27-09, 09:12 AM
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How thick is the plywood underlayment? If its only 1/4", it has to go no matter what. You should have a minimum of 1/2" plywood over t&g planking. 1/4" plywood is not stable enough under tile. If the plywood is at least 1/2", you can try to save it if you want.
 
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Old 02-27-09, 09:14 AM
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Its 3/4 or possibly more actually. I think I mentioned that at the top of the thread. so if I didnt have to remove it that would be ideal. Any tips on removing this layer. My buddy mentioned the "tile Bully" and someone else mentioned using a 4" wallpaper blade.

Thx
 
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Old 02-27-09, 09:55 AM
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My question still remains, even after I get up this layer, can I even lay the cementboard/thinset on that or will it not adhere with some of that cutback material still engrained in the wood?
 
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Old 02-27-09, 12:48 PM
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Me again

I didnt have much luck finding the Tile Bully so I got a scraper and a pry bar and have been hacking away for the past our. below is what the plywood subfloor is looking like. Before I go further, I'd love to get your thoughts on whether this is an acceptable service for laying the cementboard wtih thinset.

I found a product for helping me remove more of the cutback, its called JASCO sealer and adhesive removal. It says its for cutback on it. I assume this will help but not sure how much.

What do you think of the condition of the flooring below. You can see how small these piece are coming up... its a real bear. Thanks again for the help guys.





 
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Old 02-27-09, 01:01 PM
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You should be ok with what you have there. When you are done removing the lino and adhesive, refasten the plywood sheets to the plank flooring below. Use screws every eight inches in the filed and every 6" at the edges. Also make sure that the planks are fastened well to the floor joists. You want everything to be solid, no squeeks of loose boards.

Keep in mind that the thinset under the cement board is not to bond the cement board to the plywood. The screws or nails do that. The thinset is to fill any voids that may exist between the cement board and plywood so that there are no voids that can cause vertical (up and down) movement. The thinset will compensate for minor imperfections in the plywood and a little leftover adhesive. No big deal.
 
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Old 02-27-09, 01:04 PM
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Just some encouragement, looks like you are finally getting somewhere with the removal.
 
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Old 02-27-09, 01:21 PM
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Ok that is very promising.. thanks for that info... good to hear I don't have to rip this ply out.

Gonna go back to the grind... oh am I gonna be hurting after this..
 
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Old 02-27-09, 01:30 PM
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Take the night off, sit back and have a couple of cold ones. Youve earned it.Beer 4U2
 
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