thinking about natural stone installation

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Old 08-03-10, 02:05 PM
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thinking about natural stone installation

I've successfully installed a few different ceramic tile floors. I'm thinking of tackling a natural stone job in my folks' kitchen to save them some money. I realize that different materials are involved in a natural stone installation. What I'm wondering is: Are the mechanics of it the same? That is, do I go about it the same way?
 
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Old 08-03-10, 02:15 PM
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Besides your floor joists/subfloor needing to meet the requirement to have natural stone, the actual installation is the same.

If the stone is not gauged, then the tiles may not be perfectly square and the same size as each other, making your grout lines a little tougher to compensate.

Did you take a look in the Stickies for the FAQ I typed up?

http://forum.doityourself.com/floori...tallation.html
 
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Old 08-03-10, 03:11 PM
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Here's the problem. For the time being, they don't have access to their crawlspace. (Don't ask why.) So, I'm not sure if I could determine the joist size or spacing. Is there another way I can figure it out?

Let me ask you this (and so help me god, if someone criticizes me for this, I'm seriously going to go Mel Gibson on them) is there anyway to deduce the joist size or spacing from the age of the home and its geographical location? Would an educated guess suffice?
 

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Old 08-03-10, 03:52 PM
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I am curious as to why there is no access to the crawl space. I have to ask. It just doesn't make sense. Are there foundation vents? You can look in one of them to determine the spacing and size of the joisting.
There's no sure way to tell the spacing or size from the age of the house or where it is located. An educated guess is as good as nothing. You need to know for sure.
 
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Old 08-03-10, 04:07 PM
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Let's just say that the Three Stooges Contracting Co. screwed up really, really bad then they installed some laundry room cabinets last winter. As a result, my folks are going to have to get creative and come up with a new way to access the crawlspace. OK?

I just spoke with my dad regarding "foundation vents," and he's unaware of any such thing.

What's the worst case scenario if I install the natural stone over inadequate joisting?
 
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Old 08-03-10, 04:30 PM
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Can you see anything thru furnace vents?
 
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Old 08-03-10, 04:33 PM
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Thanks.

I'll will check. If not, are there any other options?
 
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Old 08-03-10, 04:40 PM
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No luck.

What are the risks if I proceed with the installation, but the joisting isn't up to snuff?
 
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Old 08-04-10, 04:27 AM
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The floor will crack, it will be ugly, you will be out of an inheritance, and the money you or your parents spent will have been in vain. Other than that...............
 
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Old 08-04-10, 12:25 PM
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Natural stone products require more stiffness in the subfloor than ceramic, no way would I proceed on an assumption.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 07:15 AM
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Scared

I can almost guarantee that your floor doesnt meet specs for a natural stone. Natural stone installations almost always require some additional reinforcement of the floor joist system. Heck your floor may not even support a ceramic tile installation. Without the details, you just don't know.

If you proceed as planned, the likely result will be cracked tile and cracked grout over time.

You should be able to determine floor joist spacing by observing the nailing pattern on the subfloor. You can cut out a small piece of subfloor to measure the joists size. It may or may not be possible to tell the unsupported span of the joists. Without being there, I dunno.

Why not pick out a nice porcelain tile. They make porcelain tiles that are really good look alikes to many different types of natural stone.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HeresJohnny View Post
I can almost guarantee that your floor doesnt meet specs for a natural stone.
Thank you for hazarding a guess. Would it be too much to ask you to explain? Are you saying that the joisting in most homes need to be augmented to accommodate a natural stone installation?

How about this: putting down 1/2" backerboard instead of 1/4" backerboard, which should lend some stiffness to the subfloor? That might work, right? I don't have any experience tampering with floor joists or removing sections of subflooring.

As for the porcelain, I could run it by my folks, but I know that they've had a bad experience with it before. My old man had it installed in the upstairs bathroom of their old house. The day it was done, he slipped and hit his head on the toilet when he was getting out of the shower. That stuff is slippery when wet.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 09:26 AM
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Backerboard does nothing for the structural support. It is purely to provide a good bonding surface for the tile/stone.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunguy45 View Post
Backerboard does nothing for the structural support. It is purely to provide a good bonding surface for the tile/stone.
Well, you could argue that it does do "something" for structural support since it can't really warp from weather or moisture the way wood sublooring can.
 
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Old 08-05-10, 11:14 AM
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There are two deflections here:

1. The joist deflection
2. The deflection of the subfloor between the joists.

The backerboard and plywood is irrelevent right now since you don't even know if you joists can handle the load. Like Johnny said, most homes are not built to the L720 deflection requirement for natural stone. Almost always do homeowners have to sister their joists and/or shorten the unsupported span.
 
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Old 08-06-10, 06:52 AM
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Thank you for hazarding a guess. Would it be too much to ask you to explain? Are you saying that the joisting in most homes need to be augmented to accommodate a natural stone installation?
Exactly the case. It would be unusual to say the least, for a framed floor to meet L720 unless it was known in advance that natural stone was to be installed.

How about this: putting down 1/2" backerboard instead of 1/4" backerboard, which should lend some stiffness to the subfloor? That might work, right? I don't have any experience tampering with floor joists or removing sections of subflooring.
FYI, every natural stone installation needs at least 2 layers of plywood before cement board or an isolation membrane can be used. Gunguy is correct in saying that cement board doesnt make the floor any stronger. Cement board manufacturers make no claim of any structural qualities in their products. Cement boards purpose is to provide a good bonding surface for the thinset/tile.

As for the porcelain, I could run it by my folks, but I know that they've had a bad experience with it before. My old man had it installed in the upstairs bathroom of their old house. The day it was done, he slipped and hit his head on the toilet when he was getting out of the shower. That stuff is slippery when wet.
Not sure what kinda porcelain you had their. Maybe you used the wrong stuff for a bathroom that would get water constantly. Their are plenty of porcelain tile that will perform well in wet environments and not be slipplery.
 
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Old 08-06-10, 03:08 PM
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Not funny

Thanks you for the information.

Listen, I just got an angry email from my brother who read this thread and suggested that the bit about my father slipping on the porcelain tile and hitting his head on the toilet came across as being funny. Please realize that it wasn't meant to be funny, and shame on anyone who laughed at it.

This is a DIY thread, not a comedy thread.
 
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Old 08-06-10, 03:30 PM
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Looks like you got a bit of explaining to do.......
 
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Old 08-06-10, 04:08 PM
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Agree. No one mentioned him slipping except you, and I can assure you no one on the forum laughed at such a situation. Tell bro to read all the posts. He underestimates us terribly. We are pros and accomplished diy'ers.
 
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Old 08-06-10, 06:14 PM
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This is a DIY thread, not a comedy thread.
There were only a few posts after you mentioned your father falling and I don't see where anyone thought it funny or made any sort of humorous comments about it. What are you talking about?
Your brother seems to be the only one who thought it was funny. Why don't you direct your comments to him instead of the people trying to help you. Beer 4U2
 
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