Ceramic tiles over vinyl tiles

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Old 11-05-11, 05:29 PM
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Ceramic tiles over vinyl tiles

I'm doing 500sq. ft of ceramic tile over an existing linoleum floor. 18x18 inch porcelain.
My question is where the new ceramic tile meets the existing vinyl tiles in closets and carpeted areas there is going to be a difference in height by at least 5/8 of an inch. 1/4 inch for backerboard and 3/8 inch for tile and mortar. What kind of thresholds are available if any to make the transition.


Thanx


Jim
 
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Old 11-06-11, 05:36 PM
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Hi Jim,

OK, at first I thought you were gonna install
Ceramic tiles over vinyl tiles
I see what you're doing and I think you should stop and re-think it. You should remove tile sheet vinyl and any 1/4" underlayment that it's glued to. I know you're installing 1/4" backer, but it's not a recommended method.

Jaz
 
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Old 11-07-11, 07:41 AM
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I'm with Jaz - get rid of the vinyl where the porcelain will be.
 
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Old 11-07-11, 09:40 AM
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Here's the installation instructions from the JamesHardy website. The instructions state :
"HardieBacker cement board may be installed under or over Vinyl Composition Tile (VCT) and other resilient flooring. For best results, remove existing floor covering, especially if it is in poor condition."

So while Hardi says that you can install it over vinyl I would be hesitant. If I were doing this I would rip up the vinyl if only to make sure I had a solid subfloor to support the tile. Removing the vinyl and luan underlayment (if any) will also help reduce the transition height.

You can purchase transition strips but I usually make my own. For 5/8" I would probably just butt a piece of 1X planed to 5/8" and tapered along it's length down to 1/8". You can then grout the gap between the transition and the tile.
 
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Old 11-07-11, 12:10 PM
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Thank you all for your replies.
Only problem is I think the linoleum tiles would be extremely difficult to tear up. I mean it is 500sq. ft. It is in excellent condition also. I'd rather not tear it up if I don't absolutely have to.

Jim
 
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Old 11-07-11, 12:19 PM
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Let's start at the beginning: What are the size, spacing and unsupported span of your floor joists? What are the different components of the current subfloor?
 
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Old 11-07-11, 02:37 PM
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[QUOTE=Wayne Mitchell; You can then grout the gap between the transition and the tile.[/QUOTE]
It would be better to caulk the gap with a matching caulk. Grout will crack when the wood contracts and expands.
 
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Old 11-07-11, 06:55 PM
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Jim,

No one has ever taken up the old floor just for the fun of it.

I still don't even know if you have sheet vinyl or tiles. You've called it linoleum, then in the next sentence vinyl tiles. Later linoleum tiles. Which is it? It may make a difference.

There's several problems with installing over resilient flooring and 1/4" underlayment, especially when it's luaun. The 1/4" underlayment adds virtually no strength and resilient floor coverings are....well they're resilient. If yours is sheet vinyl it might be slightly cushioned too.

In addition you are raising the floor and adding weight to the system. It's so easy to remove the 1/4" and floor covering in one operation and you'll get a better job in the end.

Jaz
 
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Old 11-08-11, 08:12 AM
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Jim

Most likely as has been discussed, your vinyl (whatever it is) is installed over a 1/4" underlayment of some sorts. Do a little exploration to see if this is the case.

If you have a 1/4" underlayment it has to go as well. Set your circular saw blade depth to the thickness of the vinyl plus the underlayment. Cut the vinyl and and underlayment into 2' squares and pry them up. Once you get started, it should be easy going. The underlayment is likely stapled to the subfloor and should come up relatively easy but messy. You can remove or pound down the staples afterwards.

Installing over the vinyl is a real gamble. Your tile and other materials are expensive, and its not worth taking the chance.

My 2 cents.
 
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Old 11-08-11, 09:48 AM
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Or you might have vinyl installed directly over plywood. In that case don't be surprised if you have a heck of a time getting it up. I did a friends bathroom last month that had vinyl tiles atop linoleum and it ended up being a real bear to remove. Pulling up the linoleum also pulled up parts of the top layer of plywood.
 
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Old 11-08-11, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sam floor View Post
It would be better to caulk the gap with a matching caulk. Grout will crack when the wood contracts and expands.
That's true but I've grouted that joint on a couple of floors. I wait until the grout stiffens and run the edge of the trowel between the threshold and the grout to separate the two. I'm not sure that even that is necessary.
 
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Old 11-08-11, 02:46 PM
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The tiles are 12"x12". So I'm assuming it is linoleum. Sorry about the confusion.
The floor is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood. 16" on center.
The tiles I am going to be laying down are 18" sq. ceramic tiles.

Jim
 
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Old 11-08-11, 04:17 PM
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Just to clarify. Linoleum is a specific type of sheet flooring which normally comes in 6' wide rolls. The word is used when people really mean to describe sheet flooring. Although it's still made, it is not generally used in residential settings.

The old 12x12 tiles may be vinyl asbestos, vinyl composition or solid vinyl. We don't know yet.

The floor is 2 layers of 3/4" plywood. 16" on center.
That is very unusual, but a good thing. You should have very little deflection between the joists anyway. I wonder what you've got for framing?

Can you tell us the; type and size of the joists, their species and grade, you already mentioned 16" on center, so I guess you meant the joists and measure the unsupported span of the joists.

You're adding a lot of weight, I'd like to know how it's framed and calculate what your joists' deflection is.

Jaz
 
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Old 11-08-11, 04:51 PM
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IMO what Jazman is saying is the most important consideration when laying tile. Tile over vinyl, CBU/noCBU, thinset or mastic, whatever - nothing is as critical as having adequate structural support.

Take a look at your floor structure - joist size, spacing, span, blocking, subfloor to be sure that you have adequate floor stiffness to support a tile floor.
 
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Old 11-09-11, 12:51 PM
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Thank you for your advice Wayne. I will check and advise the customer accordingly.
I believe the specs I mentioned are above L720.

Jim
 
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Old 11-09-11, 02:14 PM
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I believe the specs I mentioned are above L720.
Which specs are you talking about? Do you mean the two layers of 3/4" sub flooring? How did you measure that? I have no doubt a double 3/4" is plenty stiff enough, just wondering how you think it's L720, it's probably stiffer actually.

Again though, the deflection related to subfloor thickness is part of the story, the other part is the framing which looks like you don't wanna address yet. You're probably fine, but should double check before you continue.

Jaz
 
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Old 11-10-11, 07:26 PM
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I used the John Bridge calculator to Reach the conclusion that the the floor is above L720. Actually it is something like L1330.

I measured it by drilling a 1" hole in an inconspicuous area then mesuring the thickness with a thin tape measure.

Believe it or not the joists are 2x12 16 O/C.

Thanx

Jim
 
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