Messed up tile install - now what?

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  #1  
Old 01-07-14, 02:37 PM
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Messed up tile install - now what?

I am at the point where I don't have much money left to hire someone else and would probably have to finish the job myself
Honestly I know I should have done it way earlier, but - my fault I let it progress to where I am at now.

I fired the contractor that was remodeling my bathroom after seeing how he installed the floor tile and the first row of shower tile.
He, to be fair, offered me to take down the tile and pay me for that amount back, but I was so pi$$ed, that I told him to just gather his stuff and leave.

I suspect, I already know the answer to my question, but you know how we want to here what we want to her? - Yea... Please see the pictures, ask me any questions that can clarify what's going on and please give me some advise how to proceed further. The hardibacker you see, was already removed once (that I know of) becasue he "forgot" to put the tar paper behind it.
I know now, that thinset is wrong type of mortar to support this big of the tile on such big gap (pic 1) with hardibacker. If I can mud enough of "meat" on the hardi, can I continue with tile installation or I need to remove the first row?
Does it look like I am near correct reveal of the faucets? (pic 2 & 3)
Nothing seems to be leveled or straight, some places the curb and/or field tile sits directly on the tile below - nightmare right?
I know, i am screwed, just question how royally

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  #2  
Old 01-07-14, 03:17 PM
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OK. Good pix which explain a lot. Now, step back and let us see the room. Let us see it all and how it ties together. You may hear suggestions to tear it all out. Don't be upset. You could have done this alone with our backup, so you have asked. Get ready. We'll get you through it.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 03:44 PM
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Thanks Larry!

I am back to appropriate forum I guess.

I'll post more pictures as soon as I am able to take them.
Here is some more from previous attempts.

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Old 01-07-14, 03:59 PM
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And here is more:

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  #5  
Old 01-07-14, 04:01 PM
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I will have a moderator merge all these threads as they deem appropriate.

Oh my! What will hold your water in the shower? There are no berms. Only what looks like 5000 lbs of concrete, pitched to drain? Anyone's guess. Any idea how he built this pan? Does it have a PVC liner with a preslope.

My heart is sinking the more pix you post. Some of the others will comment shortly.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 04:12 PM
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Thank you Larry,

You are talking about my door jamb, tile threads?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 04:16 PM
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No. Just whatever we need here. We can't jump from thread to thread to gather information.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 04:40 PM
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Just in case

I have not annoyed you guys yet with amount of pictures, here is some more

Reason for these, becasue I think I am starting to understand or attempt to understand what was his "logic" of messing this one up.
He most likely, miscalculated the protrusion level of the faucet bench level or whatever they are called the black plastic temporary brackets. In fact neither one of them is the same distance from the same sheet of hardibacker...
But, if I place the 4' level on the bottom tile flat pointing up it perfectly lines up with the bracket. You see how it tapers away from the wall? The sole reason (IMO) is to meet the faucet on top. So the tile is not plumb or straight the valves are all over the place, but you have an appearance that it's all honky-dory becasue they line up somehow. LMAO crying and laughing at the same time

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Old 01-07-14, 04:44 PM
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Ok,
the pan could have been partially my fault.

My BOSS asked to have no curb shower in the begininng. He started building it with the curb, but later (after it's been mopped with tar) filled it with mud and (you guest it) said it will hold water just fine becasue the drain is big enough.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 04:50 PM
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My heart is sinking the more pix you post
I'm with you Larry, fired? more like firing squad....

No curb, no "bowl to contain the water, no pan??, no plan on finishing the tile beyond the edge of the shower area, minimal use of regard only, although does have paper behind cbu, I don't see a shower arm stub out, so handheld only, should have hung handheld from main shower arm, heavy on the tape in the corners (is that mastic??? or thinset??), No bullnose, floor tile on the wall, No consideration for centering tile on the recess boxes......

wish you lived on the east coast so I could fix.

May be worth filing a claim against this guys insurance to recoup what you have invested. Looks like a complete tear out. Hope he has insurance....
 
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Old 01-07-14, 04:54 PM
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Oh man, I'm with Larry and I'm no expert...but everything you post just makes me feel worse.

Mopped with tar? No Pro does it that way anymore. And what looks like Redgard only on the taped seams? And is it just the perspective or does that toilet look like it's going to be about 2" away from the shower when done?

It can be fixed...and the Pro's here can help you fix it....but I have a bad feeling about what's been done so far.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 05:29 PM
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And is it just the perspective or does that toilet look like it's going to be about 2" away from the shower
You want about 30" for the toilet area left to right, so you would be looking at 15" from the center of the flange to to the shower wall/glass wall....Not seeing it
 
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Old 01-07-14, 05:33 PM
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Thank you all,

Like I said it's a mess.

czizzi,
I actually wish you were here rather than me there although I can stand the cold for couple of weeks, considering the benefit.

I was planing on using the aluminum tile trim on the perimeter of the tile. The shower is from the ceiling "rainshower head" - don't even know if it's going to work.
It is thinset, but I don't think that he has RedGarded behind it in the very corner (most important imo) and used the white tape, but i guess now it's acceptable...
What do you mean "floor tile on the wall" - the curb or the whole shower? I suspect you know it is in fact floor tile, but how?
The guy threw a couple of daggers at me and bolted when I asked him for the papers - license and insurance, so no - it's all on me now.
I have that feeling that I have been taken.... When the guy was giving me the estimate, it was suppose to be the liner not the tar, then he changed his mind becasue in "my case" i.e. stupid homeowner - the tar is better to prevent future leaks.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 07:40 PM
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I remember telling him at least 3 times to leave enough room for the toilet. But, no he still managed to skimp on there as well. Not by much, but still 14.5" is not 15", just like almost straight is not STRAIGHT
I can't go and check absolutely everything someone (i am paying) does, this guy obviously needed a babysitter or psychiatrist or both Enough me ranting.

Main question, for now - can I or shouldn't I keep the shower pan?
If yes - can I say hope? - what should I do to prevent the pond inside the bathroom?
 
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Old 01-08-14, 04:17 AM
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If there is a way to recoup any money on this go for it. Is the guy local? No permits...in CA?. I would, at least, call in the permit people, give them his name, etc. and do this thing right.

As I said early on, someone may suggest a tearout. I don't think you have a choice. Bite the bullet,start the tearout down to the floor and wall to wall. You can (and will) take your frustrations out on demo.

This can be a diy project, and we can help, but you have to start over.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 05:12 AM
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Thanks Larry,

I suspect that I will never see my money again

Only if I take him to a small court and he knows it's a hassle...

How do I start the tear down? What do I need to take down all the tile on the wall and floor?

Is there any way I can at least "reuse" the pan he did? I understand it won't hold much water, but will it work at all?
I was going to go with a glass enclosure and a sliding glass door. Will it be out of the question in my current situation?

Thanks,

One more (so far) thing, when you say wall-to-wall, does that include drywall and plumbing?
I know, I am trying to get away with as little work on my part as possible,
 

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Old 01-08-14, 07:34 AM
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What brand of shower trim and rough ins are you using? I think you will be OK with the main valve and the diverter, however, the stub out for the handheld looks like it is a bit short. Carefully read the installation instructions on how much past the finished wall the stub out should be. Your tile is extremely thick at very close to 3/8" (floor tile). Can't tell if it is a threaded female or a soldered male connector on the end. Lets see it without the black cap on it. We then need to determine why he set the tile with the 3/4" stand off as that is what will blow the plumbing rough in distances. I also don't see any kind of a stub out in the ceiling. Is he relying on the valve to hold back the water at this point, or did he plug it and run it through a good leak test? I usually leave mine under pressure during the build even with the stops in the off position. When I then release the plugs, if pressure is still present, then I know I have a water tight rough in of all the plumbing.

He also did a zero space butt joint for a grout line (no grout line). Even thought you have rectified tile, you still need a small grout line to allow for minor variations in tile size or wall issues. That one tile pictures is off set on the first row. That offset will carry through to the rest of the wall unless you can wiggle a little space from the next grout line.

Let the Boss know that a "curbless" shower usually refers to a shower floor that is set at ground level. There would be no step up of any kind. Yours has a step up, so not curbless, and as Larry mentioned, there is not a berm which creates a small bowl or tub to capture the water should you have a slow drain or a back up from some other fixture.

He also seemed very heavy handed with the drywall mud everywhere. Were you going for a Venetian Plaster look? And as stated earlier, I can't figure how he planned to end the tile at the drywall, at 3/4" offset from the wall, a smooth transition would be near impossible.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 07:49 AM
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You know he started setting his wall tile at an angle. That was to compensate for non plumb wall. Your thinset could grow to an inch thick to keep this. You don't want that. Walls have to come down to be plumbed (straight). They also have to come down to set plumbing to the correct depth.

I really don't know what he had planned on that base. For info, here's how it should have been done:
How to build a shower - Building a shower pan with pre-sloped mortar bed, liner and curb.
Boss wanted no berm. He built it to where, even if you could salvage it, you would need a step to get in it. Your pan must hold water. I know what he planned. He wag going to tile it all and set glass walls/doors on the tile. It won't work.

Study the site and get a grip on what you have to do. This guy was a hack at best.

"Z" thinks and types faster than me. I got one arm in a shoulder sling, so I am half speed
 
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Old 01-08-14, 12:11 PM
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I really don't know what he was planing/thinking if at all. Looking at the first row of the wall tile, not much.
I think that walls are actually straight both the drywall and hardibacker, although on different levels, but straight.
His major mistake was not calculating properly the setting of the plumbing out of the wall. That's why he devised that brilliant plan of tapering up the wall to compensate for his brain-dead-ness.
From what I could tell, he built the base pretty much like it's described in the link, with the exception of the tar instead of the liner and he had a berm until the boss made him level it out. She knows she has to step in, it's the step out that was bothering her for some reason...
That's actually exactly what he said in the beginning that glass wall will be sitting on the tile with some kind of a gasket ? idk
I also have a hard time finding instructions, that I should have, for the rough in install. It is Moen Commercial "shower only", but even on the Moen site not to be easily found. Will keep looking.
Btw, the "main" positemp valve is not quite straight either, he capt it covered, so i could not see it, now I can Eh, nothing a ton of thinset couldn't fix right - LMAO still don't know why.
The ceiling stub out is actually a stub-in, it's there a 1/2" female thread, but above the drywall surface, I think by design.
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Old 01-08-14, 12:26 PM
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Contacted nice people of Moen

They are telling me that there is a 1/4" "play room" on the plaster plate for the faucets and sent me an instruction sheet for the drop ell. So...
If my pan is ok, not great but ok, if I can take down the tile he installed (btw, i suspect the longer I wait the harder it gets) - should I wet it?
I can probably tile it straight up becasue the walls are surprisingly straight. As far as drop ell not protruding enough, maybe I can cut the tile in such a manner as to set the whole thing partially into the tile and then grout around it?
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  #21  
Old 01-08-14, 03:05 PM
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Get your trim kit out and test it on by sliding it over the main valve. That looks like a monster hole and may not cover it completely with the trim. Where are the shut offs? It looks like they are on the moen valve, but they look like they are in the open position ???? Is there a block of wood behind the valve that the valve is screwed into? Adjust the screws to better line up the valve relative to the wall. However, I know the answer, because, I can't see a cross block of 2x4.

Another reason to open the wall up.

Take your hand held trim and thread it onto the copper male threaded adapter and see how far you can screw it down. You should be able to snug it up to a piece of tile slid under it. Also, all the stub outs (or ins) should have plugs in/on them. I'll see if I can find any info on the rough in dimensions.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 03:54 PM
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Moen website crashed my Laptop 3 times and my Ipad 3 times, so obviously something is wrong on their end..... You are going to have to test the rough in depths manually as the schematic you showed doesn't answer the question of how much the hand held copper male adapter should protrude past the finished wall to secure.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 04:19 PM
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Thanks a gain C'

I can see and feel the block behind both the "main" valve and the diverter as well. Feels pretty solid. Picture won't show exactly, but it seems about 3/16 between the tile and the drop ell and "more" against the diverter valve. The drop ell is not snug to tile, but maybe I can find a good enough looking gasket?
The valves on the positemp are in the on position, so it's only the valve is holding the pressure at the moment. He, the master had problems with it originally becasue he didn't know how it was suppose to operate and it had some scale (possible becasue he did not flush it first?) on the inside of the actual valve stem.
It looks like there is room to "adjust" the screw on the right (as we are looking at it) to the main valve, I just don't have the confidence to do it, will it overstress the solder joints?
When I put up the trim around both valves there is between 3/4" to 1" space to spare. Or i can buy Hansgrohe or something bigger


I know,
the tear down is much better solution, although more labor intensive (i have to find someone to do it for me becasue of my back) and therefore expensive option...

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Old 01-08-14, 04:39 PM
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Just got off the phone with Moen, again,
They say that nipple thread should be protruding from the future surface of the tile 3/8"
It's not exactly what their side view is showing, but what do I know.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 06:44 PM
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Here is some stuff regarding curbless showers.
I realize I don't have one, mine is like a hybrid i guess.
But still, my slope seems too steep compare to what they recommend.
http://www.ncsu.edu/ncsu/design/cud/...s/Curbless.pdf
 
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Old 01-08-14, 06:53 PM
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It's not the slope. It is the ability of that ledge to hold an inch of water. Your door won't hold it. Waterfall across the front. Even with curbless everything slopes to the drain. It is just a jackleg design by someone who didn't know what he was doing.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 07:18 PM
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Adjust the screws on the positemp valve to square it up relative to the wall. Shim behind to maintain square. On the hand help rough in, can you get another turn out of the trim? They sometimes supply a temp attachment that you can screw on to give you more leverage to get that extra turn.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 07:36 PM
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So back to demolishing that pan.... Can I at least try to run the saw along the "old" curb inside the pan and try to chisel out the remaining concrete, or it needs to be hauled out completely?
I doubt i can get another turn on the handheld, without any leverage, maybe with the tape, it will. I really don't want to brake it either.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 03:40 AM
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The pan was built incorrectly from the get-go. When "tar" was mentioned, that gave it away. Old school, hoping-it-won't-leak theory. Study the link I provided. It is the best way to do a pan. Did he install a liner?
 
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Old 01-09-14, 07:41 AM
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Nope he didn't use the liner, just tar supposedly with three layers of tar paper. It was done so fast that I doubt even that is true.
What I did see that surrounding lumber for the curb was (looked like) built correctly. Using treated wood and anchored down into concrete etc.
I can probably try tearing it down to that level and rebuild the pan using correct procedures from the link.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 08:22 AM
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Tearing it out won't be that expensive if you hire someone. Maybe an hour or 2. Heck, a couple of teenagers with your supervision...maybe $40? The hard part is hauling all the debris out in heavy duty trash cans.
 
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