Trying to retile behind a bathtub...(Wall)


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Old 06-04-14, 07:53 AM
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Trying to retile behind a bathtub...(Wall)

Hi there... This is my first post, so please tell me if I'm missing anything...

So, I had a pretty bad leak behind the wall above the bathtub, so I had to tear out that wall to stop it. When I did that, I noticed there wasn't any sort of vapor barrier installed, and that kinda freaked me out. I figured as long as I'm doing that, I might as well see try to install some tiles correctly and fix up the place a bit. So I'm trying to retile the wall around my bathtub, and install a sliding glass door instead of a shower curtain. I'm a newbie at this sort of thing, but I've done some research, (the best information I've seen so far is from
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/de...my-shower.html) and my brother is here to help sometimes too. But I still have several questions...

1) The wall I cut in to is partly lathing, which I've stripped most of it down to the wood (some of the wood I had to remove because of rot, but I've kept some), and partly concrete backing. Then away from the shower it turns to partly lathing, then partly drywall. My question is, can I cut both the concrete from the lathing (keeping the wood if possible), and the drywall, so that I can just have a clean line of drywall (or concrete backing, more likely)?

2) What is the down side to using concrete backing out of the shower but still in the bathroom? I don't need to put a vapor barrier out there, right? The vapor barrier is only for the bathtub area, right?

3) Should I install the shower doors over the tile? That's what it looks like in all of the pictures, but why? Wouldn't it be a lot cleaner looking if I installed it right on the concrete backing and have the tiles go right up to it? Am I overlooking something here?

Thank you guys so much for you help. :-)
 
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Old 06-04-14, 09:40 AM
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1. With old houses it can be a judgement call where you stop demo. I generally find it easier to remove the lath so the new sheeting (cement board or sheetrock) is attached directly to the studs. Sometimes this will require attaching a furring/shim strip to the studs so your new sheeting can properly align with the existing wall. If your lath is in good condition, has a smooth face and is securely fastened then you can leave it in place. It's less to demo and less to throw in the dumpster.

2. Concrete backer does not have a nice smooth face like sheetrock so you will have more finishing work to get a smooth finish.

3. The shower door frame should go on top of the tile. For one, in the future you may not like the door so it will be easy to remove the door and go back to a curtain. Also, Shower doors and their interface with the tub & surround are notorious for leaking. You don't want to rely on the tile butting up to the door frame and a caulked joint to contain the water. The door frame should go on top of the tile so if it leaks it leaks on top of the tile where it's visible and does no/less damage.
 
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Old 06-04-14, 10:26 AM
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Also need to add 2 X 4 or 6's laying flat in the wall cavity where the door frames going so you'll have something to attach the frame to.
There is no need for a vapor barrier behind tile board.
It's water proofed on the face of it with a product like Hydroban or Red Guard.
Tile board and grout are not water proof, why let the water leak though and mold up on the back side?
 
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Old 06-04-14, 10:54 AM
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Okay, so I'm tracking on the shower door frame part now. Thank you for that. But about,
1) I do want to remove the lath also... But I would have to cut the plaster in a straight line along a stud, right? If so, the method described in The Right Way to Cut a Hole in a Plaster Wall | DoItYourself.com wouldn't really work, right? I mean, the reciprocating saw would cut into the stud, right? So how should I cut it? And yeah, I just filled up two green garbage cans full of rubble. lol If I could not fill up any more until after pickup day, that would be awesome. lol

2) About the concrete backer... If I were to use that, then switch to drywall at some point, I would just use the mesh tape over the seam and put some thinset over that. Then if I were to paint it, would the difference in smoothness of the drywall vs concrete backer be noticeable? Should I sand down the concrete backer or something before putting the mesh tape, then paint?

And to Joecaption1, I've never even heard of that stuff! It sounds really great, actually. So no vapor barrier at all? Just lay on some of that stuff over the concrete backer?
 
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Old 06-04-14, 01:18 PM
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So, I think I'm just gonna take out all the plaster from that wall and put up a 1/2 inch hardiebacker board up to where the tub ends and about 1/2 inch above the tub so that it has less of a chance to wick up water (like Chandler said in the first post I mentioned), then drywall from there on. Then over the hardiebacker, I'll put 2 coats of redgard, with mesh tape on the seams (just in case). Then I'll put some mastic on the backer (a little bit at a time so that it doesn't dry up or anything and set the tiles (from the center out).

Does that sound about right? Or should I let the backer board go all the way to the tub now that I'm using redgard?
 
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Old 06-04-14, 04:47 PM
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No mastic in a wet area. Use thinset. You can stop your cbu at the 6' line if you want and sheetrock up from there. Just make sure you have a piece of tile to cover the gap between the two. Figure how you will be ending your tile at the open end. Will you be using bull nose tile? If so, figure how many you will need and have them on hand to finish the job nicely. Thanks for the PM, BTW.
 
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Old 06-04-14, 05:22 PM
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By sheetrock, I assume you're talking about the plaster? I figure tearing out that sheetrock evenly is more of a pain than just installing new Hardiebacker, so I think I'm gonna do that. But as far as the portion outside of the bathtub, how should I connect the CBU to the drywall? Just mesh tape and thinset? The website for Hardiebacker says I should put the CBU 6" beyond the shower area. They also say that on the transition from CBU to drywall, make sure to have a tile, but I don't really want to have tile going all the way 6" out from the tub, so I'd prefer to do the transition from CBU to drywall another way. Is there another way to do the transition from CBU to drywall? Would sanding then painting work?

And yes, I figure I will use bull nose for the ends. I also figure I'll have the tiles end at the end of the tub and have the doors put in like normal (so that the tile ends about an inch or so from the edge of the door). Think that sounds good?

And thank you Chandler. You've been helping me from the start lol.
 
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Old 06-04-14, 05:47 PM
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Also, there is a window where I will be tiling. I figure the process for fixing the Hardiebacker where it recesses (about 6 inches or so) is pretty much just a "do your best" kind of scenario, right? I plan on nailing a 3/4 inch piece of plywood to the concrete on the bottom and make sure it's level, then fix the Hardiebacker to that. On the right-hand side I can use an existing stud, but on the left the stud only goes down about six inches leaving another six inches of concrete. I figure I'll just use concrete nails for the lower part rather than grinding down the existing concrete or something. Is that a good idea?

As far as the tiling is concerned, for the recessed part, I'd use bull nose tiles on the edge of the "inside" of the recess.
 

Last edited by DocCh; 06-04-14 at 06:37 PM. Reason: First question I'd posted was dumb. lol
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Old 06-06-14, 12:49 PM
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So, I stripped the walls in the area down to the studs (left quite a bit of lathing still on because why not?) and guess what... On the back wall (along the longer side of the tub) in stead of studs, they nailed some 2X4s with the 4" side facing out. The problem is that the 2X4s are not square. When I put my level against two of them, it's about 1/2 inch off of the other one. I assume the middle one is the culprit, but I don't really know what to do about that. I guess the project is on hold until my brother can take a look at the makeshift studs they put in and give me an idea of what to do. :-/
 
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Old 06-06-14, 02:16 PM
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I think the hesitance of responses is due to no pictures. Words go just so far. Maybe if you could post a few pictures (no close ups) of problem areas, it may garner many more responses. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...your-post.html
 
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Old 06-06-14, 02:22 PM
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Larry beat me to the punch, we need some visuals. Particularly with a window in the mix, it is a notorious place for leaks and needs special attention. I also don't know why you want to leave any of the old lath up, it should all go down to the studs.
 
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Old 06-08-14, 07:50 PM
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Good point. So I took some pics and my brother came by and gave me some advice. He said just to tear out the messed up attempt at framing since it's not square and fixing it seems like it's gonna be very difficult. Then, he told me to make a frame with a 2X4 on the bottom, 2X2's running vertically, and a 2X2 on top. Then fix the tub to the 2X4 and screw the concrete backer into the 2X4 and all of the 2X2's (including the top) just to make sure it's secure. Then, where the tub ends, he said to add another stud just so that the tile can end where the concrete ends (I would like to have the tile end at the edge of the tub). I want the concrete to end with the tile so that I can mask the transition from concrete to drywall with the tile.

Oh yeah... and following your advice, Czizzi, I'll be tearing out all the lath so that I can start from just studs.

This is a picture of the back wall I'm talking about (with the 2X4s that aren't square and one twisted etc...

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Old 06-09-14, 06:00 AM
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By the way, that's also the window in question.

I figure for the right side, I'll just screw the concrete backer into the existing concrete so that it's flat,

On the left side, I'll redo essentially what they did before and have the half wood half concrete thing for the CBU to go into (the concrete recesses a bit).

For the top and bottom, I'll screw in 3/4 inch plywood into the concrete with 2" or longer tapcons, then screw the CBU into the plywood. Also for the bottom of the window area, I should probably make the plywood sloped slightly so that once I tile it, any water that splashes into the window area will just flow off, right?

Once I have CBU all around, I'd just apply 2 coats of redgard and be on my merry tiling way.

Does that sound about right?
 
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Old 06-09-14, 06:10 AM
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The thing about plaster walls is that they are made smooth at the surface, not the supporting base. So it did not matter that the studs were off. You probably will have to add additional nailing surfaces all around. You brothers advice is probably sufficient for the back wall. However, around the window, frame it with a slight slope so that when you add CBU and tile it drains back toward the tub. It is an exterior wall, I would try to add some insulation and a vapor barrier in addition to Redgard. In the window area I would mesh tape the outside corners with thinset and redgard over that to make water tight. At completion, get a nice bead of caulk between the window and the tile, do not use grout - same for the tub/tile intersection and the inside corners.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 06:42 AM
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When you say I should mesh tape the outside corners, are you talking about the corner where the CBU meets the window? (As in tape on the metal in the window frame and thinset over that then regard over that?)

And as for the extra vapor barrier, would a sheet of 6 mil stapled to the backside of the frame I'm building work?the corners wouldn't really be too secure (from outside moisture).
 
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Old 06-09-14, 06:59 AM
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But adding the studs and having the concrete to drywall transition over where the tub ends shouldn't be a problem, right? I mean, I do plan on putting shower doors in and the tile will still extend beyond the doors.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 07:12 AM
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outside corners
You are creating a small recessed box with a window at the back side of the box. At the front side of the box you will have cbu to cbu that form an outside corners. Use mesh cement backer tape and thinset on these outside corners. Also use mesh in the corners of that box created by the sides and the base of the box.

On the "Inside corners" up against the window, I would caulk the cbu to the window and then a bead of caulk after the tile is installed for a double seal.

This is the same mesh tape that you will use to seal all seams between cement boards as well as the main inside corners of the shower itself. Then Redgard everything...

6 Mil is fine.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 07:21 AM
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Ok. Got it. Thanks! You're awesome! :-) I'm headed out to homedepot now for the wood. Regard will stick to the caulk, right? Like there shouldn't be any issues with putting the regard over the caulk (on the CBU to window corners), right?
 
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Old 06-09-14, 02:42 PM
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For the Cement Board to window, I would use a "paintable" Adhesive caulk that you know will stick as well as hold the paint. Depot carries that in little red squeeze tubes from Dap, so no special tools are needed. For the finish caulk, use a color matching caulk that mimics your final grout color. The grout folks make matches for all there colors. Go unsanded not sanded, it is an easier caulk to work with.
 
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Old 06-09-14, 05:23 PM
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Awesome! Thanks for the tip too. I was wondering what the difference between the sanded and unsanded grouts were...
So, I just finished tearing off the lath and tearing down the makeshift frame they put up, and noticed three things, Firstly, there were perfectly good ferring strips set up that they could've used instead of dealing with this frame business. But I don't really feel like moving this tub, so I think I'm just gonna keep it where it is and reframe it... But the two important (or so they seem to me) things I noticed were,
1) the tub isn't fastened into anything, and
2) There's a huge hole where the tub drain pipe leads to the crawlspace under the house. The hole is about 4" by 6" or so. I took a picture of it, but it's with my iPhone, so you can't really see much.
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on the right is the tub. You can see the drain pipe in the pic. On the left is the other side of the wall (the kitchen).

Should I just fasten the tub to the frame I'm building and call it a day? That's how it was before, and it seemed to hold it well enough. Is there a foreseeable problem with me doing that?

And should I worry about that hole? It's inside the wall (or will be once I close up that wall lol).
 
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Old 06-10-14, 06:03 AM
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That hole has been there probably longer that you or I have been around. That being said, piece of mind would cause me to want to crawl under the house to inspect the floor joists. Plumbers cared little about structural support and used to just cut away whatever was in the way regardless of damage to the underlying support of the floor system.

That tub would take multiple people to lift and move, so that I thinks it is safe as it is. If it is solid, you can just leave it alone. If it has a little wiggle to it, we need to stabilize before closing the whole thing up.
 
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Old 06-11-14, 04:33 PM
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Awesome. Thank you for that piece of mind. I was worried that I was gonna have to tear up the floor or something lol. Man... This is one hell of a first project. lol

So I'm almost all ready to start putting up the hardibacker, but I'm not sure how to stabilize the tub. It has a bit of wiggle to it. It's also not square with the wall, so one corner is touching that frame I built and is pretty set in there, but the other corner is about a quarter inch off of the frame. If you stand in that corner of the tub, the tub moves a bit. I'd imagine that it moves just enough to mess with any caulking I'll put in there. How would I go about securing it?
 

Last edited by DocCh; 06-11-14 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 06-12-14, 06:02 AM
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Put a level all around and see which position the tub sits better in. As it sits or when you stand in it. Then determine which corner is to "Float a little" to stabilize the tub. There should be nubs or feet located under the base of the tub that the tub sits on. These should carry the weight of the tub, not the apron or the tiling flange.
 
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Old 06-12-14, 07:17 AM
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Okay... I'm gonna go try to work something out right now... Thanks... I thought it was weird that they had screws holding that top flange part to the wood.
 
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Old 06-12-14, 02:04 PM
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The screws will help steady and hold it in place from sliding around, but the are not the main support system. Use roofing nails where the head of the nail overlaps the tile flange but doesn't actually go through the tub flange. It will hold it in place.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 08:29 AM
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Awesome... I did like you said, and everything seems fine. So I've put up the vapor barrier (I'm using the 6 mil because this project is starting to cost a lot and that's considerably cheaper than the redgard, and I figure it can't be a bad solution if that's how people normally do it). Now I'm screwing in the concrete backers and I was wondering, what am I going to fill the gap between the hardibacker and the ceiling with?
I believe the ceiling is also plaster. If you look at the wood frame (the 2x4s or 2x6s depending on which wall), above the piece of wood that lays horizontally on top of all of the vertical studs, there is a piece of lath going horizontally that makes a perfect hardibacker seam impossible. There's also some wire mesh there in the corners too. I was thinking of putting thinset, but then I did some research and found that thinset is only for small areas, and I shouldn't use it here because it'll shrink. Maybe I should caulk it? I figure caulk works for everything else lol.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 09:26 AM
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At the ceiling, factor in the thickness of the tile and backer board. Shoot us another picture to help us along. Apply the 6y mil all the way around and overlap the corners buy a stud bay and let it drape into the tub until you are finished installing your backer board. You then cut off the excess but leave enough so that it overlaps the tile flange on the tub.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 12:26 PM
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Okay, I'll upload a picture when I get home... I'm at homedepot right now....
But I didn't want to tile all the way to the ceiling (too expensive). And I have the vapor barrier starting about an inch from the top, but I can add more to compensate. I'll upload a picture when I get home. :-) thank you again for helping me through this.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 03:52 PM
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This picture is sideways, so the ceiling is on the left. And that lath in the middle there is actually torn off, it just looks like it touching the CBU, but it's not.

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So, this is what it currently looks like. My plan (for the ceiling to CBU corners) was to cut that wire mesh as close to the wall as possible. Then set the CBU right up against that piece of wood underneath the mesh tape (you can see it in the third picture). Then I'd use the mesh tape I have to cover a bit of the CBU, go completely over that piece of wood and onto the ceiling a bit. Then cover the tape with thinset and paint. Am I doing anything obviously wrong or am I missing anything?
 
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Old 06-13-14, 04:26 PM
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If you are not tiling all the way to the ceiling, then you need to transition to drywall to finish the upper portion. Which brings into play the sides of the shower that will butt to the plaster. You really need to fur out the wall to match the plaster thickness so that you can transition from tile to plaster/drywall on the same plane. Tile up to and slightly over the seam where the two surfaces meet. At the ceiling, the drywall will be taped and seamed to mask that transition. Think you need to pull back slightly so that the side walls can be matched for the finish of the tile to plaster transition. If you are pulling the whole wall, that is less of an issue.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 04:49 PM
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Yeah, I am tearing out all of the plaster and lath from the affected walls (I plan on keeping the wall with the door intact, but we'll see if that's possible. I might end up having to redo that wall too if I can't break the plaster evenly enough, but I sincerely hope not). So since I'm tearing out that plaster and lath, I won't have to worry about the smooth matching. I was going to put in another stud where the tub ends so that I could do the transition like you said, but then I noticed that the studs weren't even close to square, and if I added another stud I was just going to compound the problem, so I decided to forget it and just have the transition and hope the seam doesn't show too much. I don't really care too much if it does anyway. As for the top, I can transition to drywall if you think I should, but I thought the Hardibacker CBU was better with moisture (the steam from the shower). Wouldn't it be better for me to use CBU all the way up to the ceiling?

And either way, when you say taped and seamed, are we saying the same thing? Would I tape it with the same alkali resistant mesh tape and then thinset over that for a smooth transition? And what to you mean by pull back slightly? The thinset wouldn't do the trick?
 
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Old 06-13-14, 04:57 PM
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When I'm done with this, I'm going up to Virginia to buy you some beers. lol
 
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Old 06-13-14, 05:09 PM
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When I'm done with this, I'm going up to Virginia to buy you some beers. lol


If you are not tiling to the ceiling, you want to transition to greenboard at or around the 6 ft line going up the wall. Ideally, you would plan your tile to go up the wall, cap with bullnose and have the split between cement board and drywall happen under the bullnose for a smooth transition. Same for the sides of the shower. You will need nailing surfaces for both the drywall and the cement board on the sides of the shower. The transitions between boards I do with normal drywall mesh tape and a setting type drywall joint compound. The seams between adjacent cement board pieces use the heaviers mesh tape and thinset. Use the same setting type joint compound and normal tape for the ceiling transition.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 05:51 PM
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Awesome. Okay, so tomorrow I'm going to buy some 1/2 inch mold tough gypsum board at homedepot and put that above the CBU and pretty much everywhere else in the bathroom that isn't going to be tiled. I'm going to have the transition (on the top) happen under a bullnose tile. For the seams connecting the gypsum boards to anything else, I'll use drywall tape (that includes the gypsum to ceiling part) and setting (aka joint compound?) to cover up where the drywall tape goes and where the screws go. Then the CBU mesh tape of the CBU to CBU seams and thinset over that and I'm ready to tile and paint, right?
 

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Old 06-13-14, 06:38 PM
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Correct in all except in the joint compound dept. Setting type joint compound comes in a powder form that you mix yourself with water. It sets by chemical reaction as opposed to regular joint compound which drys by evaporation. The chemical dry allows for a stronger compound that resists shrinking and splitting. You can bridge larger gaps such as your ceiling transition. Just mix in small batches as it sets up quickly in the bucket. 20 minute mud gives about 10 minutes worth of working time. I mix directly into the mud pan with a small putty knife and work quickly.

Take your time and be sure to provide some final picture to share with the forums. Check back if you need assistance.
 
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Old 06-13-14, 07:00 PM
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Awesome. So I'll get some of this in stead of that premixed stuff.
You've been SOOO helpful. This is amazing. And I most definitely will proudly display pictures of the final result! Thanks again.
 
 

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