Self Stick Tile Not Sticking

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Old 06-01-15, 06:41 PM
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Self Stick Tile Not Sticking

I'm doing a new floor in a small bathroom. I put down 1/2" plywood underlayment and treated it with "Henry 336 Bond enhancer, Self Stick Tile Primer". I put 4 coats of this stuff on till the surface had a sheen because 2 coats left most of the spring wood looking like it needed more. I let it dry for 24 hours before I began laying the tile. I vacuumed and wiped the surface with a tack cloth to make sure of a good bond. Or so I thought I laid all of the tiles and rolled them with a 200# weight several times. It is obvious all of the tiles are kind of puckered up in the middle. I put a static load of 200# (5 8" concrete blocks)or so on top of one tile and let it sit over night. It still will not stay down. The tile is the "Chalet" brand sold by "Lowes". They are really, really, STICKY Because I slipped with one of them and it stuck to my chest and off came most of the hair I don't get it I sanded the underlayment and treated it, made sure the surface was clean and dry. I followed the "destructions" TO-THE-LETTER! I bought a tube of the seam sealer used on vinyl flooring to bond the tiles around the edges, but haven't used it yet because those tiles wont stick to the floor. What do I do? rip them up and paint the underlayment first? If I have to do that: what should I paint it with? With my luck; the tiles will stick to the paint and somehow lift the paint and leave me really p*** off It's become obvious that "Henry's 336 bond enhancer" is anything but. It ain't worth the bottle it came in. last time I take any advice from a ** associate who "swears by" whatever product he/she recommends:NO NO NO: The working temperature was about 80 degrees F. H E L P
 
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Old 06-01-15, 07:36 PM
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Do you have a piece of plywood not treated with the bonding enhancer? If so how does the tile stick to it?
 
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Old 06-01-15, 07:43 PM
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I would almost guarantee that you are having problems as a result of putting 4 coats down. You say you followed the instructions to a tee... but where in the instructions does it say to put down 4 coats just because you think it should cover the floor like paint? One coat was probably enough. Since you say the floor "had a sheen"... I'd say that you put it on a bit too thick. It isn't paint.

Call the Henry Tech Support: 800.232.4832

I would bet they will quiz you on the amount of coats... and the amount of dry time BETWEEN those coats, since that will affect the dry time of each layer. (first layer won't dry if it didn't have time to cure before you applied the next, and so on... x 4.) So I'd say that was a big mistake.

There could also be a reaction between the adhesive on your tile and the primer, so you may want to contact the flooring company's tech support. If they don't recommend that you use the Henry's 336 then you probably should not have used it. Always follow mfg's instructions.
 
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Old 06-02-15, 01:55 PM
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I had done another room with the same plywood. It is 1/2 inch treated exterior grade. I used to use marine grade plywood as underlayment in bathrooms, kitchens and laundry rooms. It just got too expensive to justify using that anymore. Using that cheap wafer board in rooms where the floor might get wet is no option, the wafer board usually swells up.
The same tile, from the same production run, didn't stick to the untreated plywood either, That's why I bought the "Henry's 336"; based on the advice of a Lowes associate who said that was the preferred method to get that brand of tile to stick. The instructions say to apply it "liberally" and not to let it "puddle", which is what I did. "Henryr's 336" is not thick like paint, it pours like water, and looks like milk, I'd say it has about the same viscosity. It's very thin and immediately soaks into the plywood. They say one gallon is enough to treat 400 sq ft. Judging by what's left in the bottle; I'd say there's enough to take it that far. Could it be the treated exterior grade plywood is at fault? It's been over 20 years since I'd done any building or remodeling. Since the gmt began interfering with everything because of the "environment", chemicals that really got the job done are no longer available, no wonder why things don't last anymore!!!
 
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Old 06-02-15, 01:57 PM
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Treated plywood should never be used indoors. And it stays too wet for flooring.
 
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Old 06-02-15, 02:22 PM
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I had done another room with this tile, from the same production run, on the same 1/2 inch treated exterior grade plywood and the tile did not stick. That's why I bought the "Henry's 336". An associate at Lowes said it was the best option when adhesion was a problem with that brand of tile. My wife was curious about this tile when I first bought it. She took one sheet and put it down on the old subfloor (wafer board). Oh: it stuck alright! Even a scraper wont get it to budge. It's gonna take a chisel to get that one up! So: I know the glue is good! I'm at a loss right now. I'm retired and money is too tight to rip everything up and start over. I had stopped on the other room because of the adhesion problem. Right now the only tiled area is what's under the commode there. The room I used the "Henry" junk in is a 3/4 bath. I didn't notice the tile moving when walked on till it was all down. When I was younger and "knew everything" I painted the subfloor before laying some self stick tiles. Oh...it stuck alright and lifted the paint. That: was a disaster! My wife is talking about...CARPET TACKS! I'm not ready to go there YET!
 
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Old 06-02-15, 04:55 PM
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Can you tell if the tile is sticking to the Henry product and it is the Henry product that is lifting from the plywood? Or is the tile truly not sticking to the Henry product which IS stuck well to the plywood?

I have always used exterior grade plywood for sub-floors and never had any problem. I don't know what "treatment" your plywood has, maybe you mean treated for insect resistance and if so I would agree with Sam that it will always have a somewhat "oily" (for lack of a better term) surface that would likely interfere with any subsequent coating.
 
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Old 06-02-15, 06:28 PM
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The exterior grade plywood is treated with arsenic (according to a tag on the edge) to prevent mold and insect damage. Because the plywood is dipped in a bath; it is somewhat wet from the store. I laid the subfloor about 2 months ago and left it to acclimate to the homes climate. It was dry when I first tried to lay the tile. 2 months of drying time should be enough? Another poster stated that exterior plywood is "always wet". I folded up about 5 layers of paper towels and placed it on the plywood I hadn't done anything to and stood on it for about 5 minutes (I weigh 210 pounds). There was no sign of any moisture being wicked from the plywood after that test, I also did the same to an area that I treated with the "Henry's" and had no moisture show on the paper towels there either. It doesn't feel "oily". It felt a little sticky until the "Henry's" dried. The plywood absorbed the "Henry's" almost immediately. Even the 4th coat went into the plywood very quickly. It's not like there is a "coat" on it. It's a little shiny when the light hits it a certain way. When I run my hand across the surface; it feels like the plywood felt before I put the "Henry's" on. Have you used any of "Henry's" products? I had never heard of them until that guy in Lowes recommended it. I'm beginning to wonder if they are the same type of scam artists who sell this "miracle oil treatment" that will make your car go 10,000 miles on a tank of gas?
 
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Old 06-02-15, 06:53 PM
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The paper towel test you used wouldn't be effective to check for moisture as the moisture would go right thru it. Normally you would tape a piece of clear plastic down and moisture would collect under it.

I don't think moisture is your problem. The coating leaves an oily residue on the wood. That might be what's causing the stick problem.

You may have to use a contact cement product.

DAP/Weldwood contact adhesive
 
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Old 06-02-15, 06:53 PM
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Sorry you're having this problem. There is no scam, the problem is that you used treated plywood indoors. You can't even use treated outdoors if it's part of a tiling sandwich.

Henry's products are excellent, and they all work exactly as the label states. I know you won't find instructions that say to use it over pressure treated wood for any reason. I think you need to remove the ply and then let us know about what you're dealing with and what you plan to do.

The guy at Lowes has no clue what to do cuz he doesn't know you used the wrong plywood. Next time buy underlayment grade ply and when installing vinyl, you usually want a " board that is made for that purpose. Like Multiply.

Jaz
 
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Old 06-02-15, 07:02 PM
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Yes, I have used several Henry products in the past. However, after doing a short Internet search it seems there are TWO Henry companies and they have similar logos. One is based in Pennsylvania and has been in business for more than 75 years supplying products to the flooring industry. Hardly a "flash in the pan" con-artist organization.

The other Henry is an offshoot of the flooring Henry and its products are primarily used in the roofing industry. I have used products from both companies and never had any problem.
 
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Old 06-03-15, 04:16 AM
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If I get this right you used pressure treated plywood for an underlayment?
Huge mistake, it's full of voids in the core.
Peel and sick tiles is also a poor choice for flooring in any room, but really bad idea in a bathroom.
 
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Old 06-03-15, 04:57 PM
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I used the 1/2 ply to beef up the subfloor because of water damage in several locations. It's also a good rodent barrier, in my experience; rats and mice don't seem to like the taste and I've noticed less of ant problems as well.
I'm not one for "patching things up" so I plan on putting new ply thru the entire home over the existing waferboard. As for removing what I put down: I doubt I would be able to accomplish that task; It's screwed on an 8 inch span on every joist and also glued with lots of "liquid Nails" (about 2 tubes per 4X8 sheet).
I'll just plan on putting down a cheap underlayment the tile will stick to, on top of the treated ply. It's a 29 year old Manufactured home ie: "trailer" that was built to meet all applicable building codes in force at the time. It was one of the better quality homes of the time, at $34K a lot of attention was given to quality and workmanship. While "dated" It's mine and it's paid for!
My budget is kinda tight, so for the next couple of years I'd rather know the basic flooring is substantial and put up with that cheap self-stick till I can afford the floating hardwood I really want. I do all of my own work; so I have to stick with what's easy to work with. If I had to pay a "professional"; none of this would be possible because of the outrageous labor costs in this area.
All of you guys in this community are the greatest! This is the first site like this, I've been on, where ppl weren't arrogant and insulting.
I originally came here with the thought there might be some kind of new trick (as in easy!!) in working with this stuff. Now I know what I need to do. Though not "easy" (money wise) it's doable.
There are a lot of good ideas here in every area. It took me a solid year in a library to learn the hows and whys to properly build a house and 5 years of back breaking work, but: I built my first house at 25. The thought of taking on a $75.00 monthly mortgage payment for 20 years freaked me out! In the 70's $75.00 a month was a lot of money! Thanks guys! I'll check in once in awhile. I'm sure I have some tips and tricks to share. 40+ years of experience taught me a thing or two.
 
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Old 06-03-15, 09:17 PM
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What do you mean by "wafer board"?
Is it OSB or patical board?
Underlayment is never glued down, and never should have been nailed to the joist!
And none of the seams should have lined up with the seams below.
I'd go over the mess you have now with 1/4 underlayment rated multiply plywood (no louon !)
Then use linolium for flooring.
Last thing you want in a bathroom is a floor full of seams that are going to open up.
 
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Old 06-03-15, 09:46 PM
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What do you mean by "wafer board"?
Is it OSB or patical board?
[The word is particle, not patical.]
Oriented Strand Board (OSB) is often called wafer board.

Underlayment is never glued down, and never should have been nailed to the joist!
I've asked the question before, WHY? The stock reply is so the two layers will be able to slip. That is ridiculous. How in the world can two pieces of material that are nailed every six inches possibly slip? I think this is just a case of "That's how we have always done it" without ever actually thinking about the logic.

And none of the seams should have lined up with the seams below.
This point I agree with.

I'd go over the mess you have now with 1/4 underlayment rated multiply plywood (no louon !)
The word is Lauan

Then use linolium for flooring
.
The word is Linoleum. Linoleum is a fairly upscale flooring material, I would suggest a vinyl sheet flooring material.

Last thing you want in a bathroom is a floor full of seams that are going to open up.
While I agree it is his floor and he may use whatever he desires.
 
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Old 06-04-15, 06:15 AM
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Gluing causes high and low spots.
There's always a tiny low spot between the floor joist, avoiding nailing into the joist allows the underlayment to make direct contact with the subflooring so there's no flexing.
 
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Old 06-04-15, 06:53 AM
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I agree with Joe about not gluing the underlayment. If you don't know why, you don't understand that all wood expands and contracts with temperature changes and moisture changes.
 
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Old 06-04-15, 06:18 PM
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It's not particle board. About the only thing that stuff is good for is starting a camp fire! The sheeting I refer to as "wafer board" is made up with various sizes of wood chips glued together. I'm not sure if it's any better than particle board. Anything made with scraps from a saw mill can't be all that usable; except maybe the same use I have for particle board! I don't know about linoleum either. As I remember; linoleum is nothing more than tar paper with a very thin vinyl covering, much like contact paper. I remember when I was a kid; I had drug a chair across a linoleum floor and discovered that black streak wouldn't wash off because I had exposed the tar paper component. I'll be going with lauan plywood on top of the treated plywood so the tiles will stick. I know the tiles will stick to that stuff without using any type of primer. I went with the self stick tiles because I can't afford anything better at this time. Hopefully; I'll be able to get the hardwood I really want before those cheap tiles get too rough looking. The joints are all staggered, that's a common practice when using 2 layers of anything where structural integrity is concerned. I butted the squares up as close as possible. I also have some seam sealer I plan to use on the seams. It's labor intensive, but: when you have more time than there is money!
 
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Old 06-04-15, 08:07 PM
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As several have already mentioned, do not use lauan, it is not an approved underlayment.
 
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Old 06-04-15, 08:18 PM
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Lauan can have voids in the plies which can collapse and it has been known to bleed and stain floor covering.
 
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Old 06-05-15, 01:41 PM
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What would you recommend for an "approved" underlay? I have to go with the 1/2 ply thru-out because of water damage to the original sub-floor, most of it (95%) is still sound and ripping all of it out would be a huge waste of time. Whatever I use: it has to be less than 3/8 thick. When I replaced the original entry doors with steel entry doors; I raised the threshold 1 inch to account for the added thickness of my repairs and new floor covering. I don't care what it's called or made of because the underlying flooring is sound and stable, whatever this "self stick" will really stick to!
 
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Old 06-05-15, 03:31 PM
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Use an 1/4" underlayment grade plywood with a sanded surface. That way you only have to give a quick skim coat to the nail holes and seam for a perfectly flat surface ideal for use under vinyl.

Underlayment (Common: 7/32 in. x 4 ft. x 8 ft.; Actual: 0.196 in. x 48 in. x 96 in.)-431178 - The Home Depot
 
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Old 06-05-15, 05:37 PM
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One of my houses has linolium floors in a kitchen that been there for over 20 years and still looks brand new.
You get what you pay for.
 
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