drywalling ceiling

In the near future, I am going to drywall my ceiling in my kitchen/dining room. My ceiling joist in my kitchen run from the front of the house to the back. The ceiling joist in the dining room run from the side my house to other side of my house. I know I want to instal my drywall across the ceiling joist BUT at some point and time when the kitchen ceiling and dining room meet it isnt going to work? Any ideas?

Also, would you reccomend using contruction adhesive in addition to drywall screws?

 

What's between you and the ceiling joists now? Plaster? Nothing? If it's nothing and the ceiling is open, a picture would be worth a million words.

Where the two sets of ceiling joists meet you'll either have a beam or load bearing wall holding up one end of one set of ceiling joists. You'll have to drywall the two parts of the kitchen/diningroom ceiling separately.

No, don't glue the drywall to the ceiling. There's no need for that.

 

Thanks, thats what I was thinking. Yeah, I have a beam where the different joist meet. So basically drywall across the ceiling joist and where the drywall meets at the beam it is going to be the tapered edge of the kitchen and the butt joint of the dinning room. Any tips on finishing that?

No pic b/c I have all the insulation in.

 

If it were me, I would fill in the contoured side of the joint with joint compound and allow to dry. I'd scrape or shave that down with a putty knife or trowel just so there were no lumps or bumps in the joint compound, and then stick fiberglass mesh drywall joint tape over the middle of the joint. And then I'd use a "curved trowel" to spread a very thin mound of joint compound over that joint.

A curved trowel looks like a normal flat trowel until you sight along it's edge and see that it's curved along it's length so that if you were to set it down on a flat surface, it'd arch up about 1/8 of an inch in the middle. Since you hold the trowel at a comfortable angle to the wall when using it, a curved trowel allows you to spread a VERY thin and symmetric mound of joint compound over a drywall joint, which is what you need for any joint that doesn't have a contoured edge on both sides.

And, that's especially important on ceilings because of ceiling mounted light fixtures and windows that come within a few inches of ceilings. That kind of lighting will exagerate any defects in the drywalling workmanship. But, curved trowels allow you to spread such a thin mound of joint compound, that ceilings aren't a problem.

You can see a picture of a curved trowel in the thread entitled "Drywall Smash" in this forum.

 

I've never used a trowel for drywall finishing. I'll tape using a 6" knife and progressively get wider. Butt joints are typically floated out 1'-2' It's been my experience that paper tape does a better job than the 'sticky' tape. If you must use sticky tape it's best to cover it with a setting compound like durabond.

 

Paper tape and drywall knife man myself, like Mark

 

Never use mesh tape with drywall mud....ever!!! It will crack out. Sounds like Nestor is an old school plaster guy. Thats the way they do it with blue board and plaster (mesh tape) but plaster dries hard as a rock and wont crack easily. Drywall mud is soft and will crack.

 

Coops:

The reason why drywall is so rigid considering what it's made of is because paper is very strong in tension. So, if you have a gypsum core, and you clad both sides of it with a strong thick paper, then in order to bend that assembly, the paper on one side or the other has to stretch to accomodate the new shape. Since paper is very strong in resisting stretching, drywall is surprisingly rigid considering what it's made of.

Now, just carry that idea one step further, and consider what happens when a wall bends. Obviously, one side of the wall or the other has to stretch in order to accomodate the new shape. The problem is that joint compound (and all ceramic and masonary materials) are weak in tension. If the wall bends, then the drywall joints on the convex side of the wall will break before they stretch. The whole idea behind using tape over drywall joints is so that if the wall does bend, then it's the paper tape that is strong enough in tension to prevent the joint compound from stretching significantly, and thereby preventing the joints from "cracking", or more correctly "breaking".

So, what's important here is the ability to carry tension. And, my experience has been that fiberglass mesh tape is as strong (or stronger) than paper tape. I've used fiberglass mesh tape for over 20 years on both drywall and plaster walls and have never had any problems with it. And, I've read plenty of horror stories about newbies having difficulties trying to use paper tape.

I can only go by my own experience. If I haven't had any problems with fiberglass mesh tape on drywall joints, why wouldn't I recommend it over paper tape. It's simply easier to use, and if it gives good results, why not use it.

I'm convinced that the only reason why people claim that fiberglass mesh tape isn't strong enough is because they use a finishing mud to tape the joints. You need a really strong and sticky mud to do the taping. I believe that if people used regular joint compound for their taping, they wouldn't have problems with either paper or fiberglass mesh tape.

 

Nestor, I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't have the necessary credentials to back up this statement but it has been my understanding the paper tape is actually stronger than the mesh

If used with a setting type compound, the mesh tape can be fine but regular mud and mesh together aren't up to the standards I've seen of the pros here

 

What do you mean by a "setting type" compound? One with a chemical set that kicks in after a certain time? Why would that make any difference whatsoever?

Fiberglass mesh tape might only be considered "weaker" than paper because it's applied to the bottom of the contoured valley, not in the same plane as the face paper of the drywall. It's like anything else; in order for any tape to carry tension across the joint, it's best that it be in the same plane as the paper (that's in tension) on each side of the joint. So, if someone says that fiberglass mesh tape isn't as strong, and leaves it at that, then that's a stupid argument because I'm a full grown healthy man and I can't pull a 2 inch wide strip of fiberglass mesh tape apart if my life depended on it. But, if they make the point that the fiberglass mesh is in the wrong plane to be most effective, then I consider that a valid point.

However, when one considers how much difficulty newbies have doing a good job taping with paper tape, and that their paper is all over the place too, then it's not reasonable to say that they'd be better off using paper as opposed to fiberglass mesh.

I've been doing drywall and plaster work since the mid-1980's, I've never used paper tape, I've always used fiberglass mesh, and I've never had any problems. If fiberglass mesh tape isn't "as good", then in my experience it's certainly good enough to do the job well, and your joint's won't be any better off if you use paper tape. That's cuz they won't crack in either case, and a force strong enough to make one break is likely to be strong enough to break both.

You also have to keep in mind that people will always denegrate any new product as being a short cut. And, of course, I've come across my fair share of "knowledgeable" that will bad mouth a product before they've ever tried it because they don't have a favourable impression of it in their own mind. All I can go by is my own experience, and I've had no troubles whatsoever with fiberglass mesh in my drywall joints.

I've only used a premix joint compound once. I normally mix my joint compound from a powder with water. I use Synko ProSet 90 in the "Lite Sand" (finishing) version, and mix in diluted white wood glue in various proportions depending on whether I want the joint compound to stick really well and dry really hard or to dry soft and be easy to sand smooth (or anything in between). I don't know if that would make any difference at all. I would concede that it's possible that my adding white wood glue to my joint compound makes my joint compound stick better and dry stronger and harder than if I'd used a premix. But, if that's the case, then I'm not doing it wrong. Everyone else should be doing the same to get better, stronger drywall joints. I don't add any glue to the top one or two coats so that the joint compound dries soft and sands smooth easily. And I've been doing that for over 20 years with no problems. My walls are just as pretty as anyone's, prolly prettier.

 

Sticky tape tends to bubble and roll over time. I've seen countless cases where you had to go back and fix tape jobs that were done with the sticky tape. A setting compound [like durabond, easy sand] chemically dries as opposed to ready mix joint compound that air dries. Setting compound dries harder than j/c. That gives the sticky tape a better chance of holding up. It's the same reason that you can successfully use a setting compound to repair plaster cracks [after scratching them out] without using tape [assuming there is no more settling]

While the sticky tape is easy to use, it doesn't have the long term success that the paper tape offers. Improperly adhered paper tape shows almost immediately and is easy to fix, problems with sticky tape usually show up months later - after the finisher is gone and the wall/ceiling painted

 

Marksr: Can you please explain how that could possibly happen? I mean initially the tape is covered with joint compound, and the joint looks fine. Then, despite the joint compound being fully dry and sticking to the drywall face paper through the mesh, the fiberglass mesh tape rises up and bubbles and rolls, thereby pushing the joint compound off the drywall? If you've seen that countless times, why haven't I seen that even once?

Well, no premix will ever have a chemical cure because that cure will kick in before the premix even leaves the factory. You're saying a joint compound with a chemical cure dries harder than a premix.

Well, I use Synko ProSet 90:



The "90" means that a chemical cure kicks in 90 minutes after mixing the powder with water. When that happens the joint compound gets very stiff and impossible to spread or otherwise work with over the course of a few minutes. Synko also makes ProSet 60 and ProSet 30, which have chemical cures that set in after 60 and 30 minutes respectively.



Both of these products dry very soft and easy to sand. Synko ProSet 90 is one of the most popular joint compounds on the market. If it dried perceptibly harder than a premix it wouldn't be as popular because that would make it harder to sand smooth.

Look, fellas. We each may have different experiences that colour our opinions. My experience with fiberglass mesh tape has been a good one. How can I in good faith tell some newbie NOT to use fiberglass mesh tape just because someone else is telling me it's not as good? I've had 20 years using fiberglass mesh drywall joint tape in my building, and NONE of my joints have ever "bubbled" and/or "rolled" (or whatever). My own experience with the stuff has shown me there's no problems with it, so why would I warn anyone away from it?

I'll let Marksr, Coops28 and Mitch17 warn people away from it. But my experience with the stuff has been a positive one, and I will not tell people not to use it.

 

I probably should have said it bulges which is probably more accurate than a bubble. Regular j/c is too soft to work well with the sticky tape. A setting compound dries HARD and helps to lock the sticky tape down.

I've not heard of the SYNKO brand - maybe it's a regional thing but it sounds similar to durabond except durabond is a bear to sand. It comes in a 90 minute, 45 min and 20 min formula, I prefer the 45. When I need to use a setting compound, I'll usually use it for the first 2 coats and use regular j/c for the top coat since it's easier to sand.

I suspect your success with the sticky tape might be in part due to using the SYNKO. 15-20 yrs ago I used some sticky tape in one room of my house followed by regular j/c and have since had to replace some of it. When I drywalled a paint room in my shop I ran out of paper tape but had a piece of a roll of sticky tape and finished up with it. I was using a mix of durabond and j/c [using up scraps] and you can tell which joint has the sticky tape. When the sticky tape 1st came out almost all the drywall finishers I painted behind started using it. Within 3 months almost all of them went back to paper tape because of failures.

 

Nestor, I find it very hard to believe that you have been doing drywall since the mid 1980's and have never used paper tape and don't know the difference between quick set mud and pre mixed. I don't think they even had mesh tape in the 80's.

You havn't had a problem with mesh tape because you either put quick set mud over it or plaster which dries very, very hard. Believe me, if you just stuck mesh tape on a wall and coated it with light weight (pre mixed) mud it would crack. No maybies about it. It would 100% of the time crack out. It has nothing to do with tensle strenght or if you can pull a car with mesh and not paper. It has to do with the material you use with it.

Mesh tape is supposed to save time and money, but it doesn't save either. If you wanted to apply mesh tape to a patch or even new drywall and not have it crack out here is how you do it. You coat the joint with all purpose mud then apply the mesh. Then, when dry, you coat over the mesh with all purpose mud. That is the same directions to apply paper tape. So the mesh doesnt save time and actually costs more.

For a diyer it is much easier to use drywall knives and pre mixed mud. Not curved trowels, which you cant find at home depot or lowes in the US, or quick set mud.

 

"I don't think they even had mesh tape in the 80's"

I first became aware of mesh tape when they started using it in new construction in fla somewhere in the late 80's.