Water leak from 2nd floor/between floors - need a sanity check.

Hi, first time poster here, just signed up today. I don't have any pictures currently, but hopefully I can describe this well enough. My issues are mostly plumbing, but initially I'm concerned with the dry wall/ceiling aspects to gain access to the plumbing. I don't have any access panels currently.

We just bought our house (two-story, built in 1976) back at the end of August. Older floor plan, so essentially each "area" of the house is walled off as separate rooms.

Here recently, I've discovered two leaks, both in the Foyer area.

Leak 1 - 90% sure this is coming from the 2nd floor bathtub drain. Bathtub sits perpendicular to the foot of the stairs. When the tub was filled with the drain closed, water was leaking onto the bottom steps. It appears that the previous owners spackled over some damage. There's a shift in patterns of the ceiling and the area where it was dripping was extremely soft when saturated.

Leak 2 - corner of foyer at entry to family room. Never noticed it "wet" until last night. There is a black spot here, previously thought it was just discoloration. Now I'm thinking this might be mold. Immediate discolored area is maybe 1-2" in diameter. This is not directly below any sinks or tubs.


Is my best bet to figure out what's going on and check for mold a matter of opening up these sections of ceiling? and if so how much should I cut out? Would a normal handheld drywall saw suffice?

Am I jumping the gun by considering cutting this stuff open?

PS. The ceiling has the raised "textured swirl" pattern going on. Plaster I suppose? Not really sure. I'm slightly concerned with trying to make things look like they match when I get everything fixed.

 

Depending on the size of the foyer and the confidence (90%) you have in the source of the water, just tear out the ceiling. You are only using the site of where the moisture shows up and guessing where the real leak or problem is. Water can be devious and flow long distances horizontally in order to go downward.

Removing the ceiling gives you a look at the entire area for other sources and makes plumbing repairs easier. When you get a good view, you might see/correct addition spots that could become big problems in the future if not corrected at that time.

It will be easier to replace the entire "drywall" ceiling than to try to patch and match textures.

Since it is in a foyer and adjacent to and exterior door or window, there is always the possibility that they were not installed properly (very common) without proper flashing so no amount of caulk can solve that problem.

Dick

 

So opening the ceiling it is....somehow I figured that was the right answer and really hoped I was wrong.


edit: got distracted by work. Yeah, about 90% sure it's all isolated in the foyer area. That "black spot" that doesn't sit directly under much of anything would be about midway between the two upstairs bathrooms, so it would make sense (to me) to have that be a main feed. Not that I've ever been wrong about another contractors rational before.

 

First place to look is if you have access to the back of the tub on the drain side. Usally located in a closet area. Opening up that area will allow you a visual inspection to verify that the drain is the culprit (you will be able to see the drain).

Not sure of the exact layout, but is there space under the stairs that you can open up without getting into the textured ceiling. We know it is a plumbing leak, cutting the ceiling will verify a plumbing leak, but do nothing to fix the problem.

What kind of tub drain do you have? Many times they can be repaired from the topside without needing to get underneath.

Lets look at all possibilities here.

 

Re: Leak 1 -- Trying to unscrew the tub drain before (using a drain wrench), I managed to break off one of the cross hairs. It's a porcelain tub, so I'm a bit leery of the more creative ways of removing it (cutting, chisel, etc).

Not sure the proper name for it, but the overall tub plumbing/drain setup has 7 pieces - the tub drain with exposed cross hairs, separate hot/cold knobs, with a middle (3rd) knob to switch over to the shower. Has a "toggle switch" to activate the tub stopper, and then the overflow drain and the shower head.

If you're coming down the stairs, the wall directly in front of you would be the back of the tub/shower. (Bit of an abnormal layout) with the tub drain sitting at about the 2nd step up from the bottom of the stairs. Everything ceiling wise on the 1st floor is textured.


Re: Leak 2 -- no sinks/tubs directly above the spot. Without opening anything up, it appears to be a much smaller area of damage, though like Dick said, this could be the result of pooling in a specific location.

Leak 2 is closer to the middle of the house. Where the stairway runs North-to-South, straight back behind the stairs is a half-bath with a hallway running east-to-west from the kitchen to the family room. This spot is on the ceiling almost in the corner where the foyer is divided from the living room and family room and east-west hallway.

 

(Waiting on the files to get from my phone to the laptop....yay email)

Really now concerned about "Leak #2", I went home for lunch, checked the attic for water damage to see if there was signs of anything coming in. Attic looks good.

Back down to the first floor, I figured I'd poke the ceiling and see if it was soft or wet. Finger went right through like a wet tissue. (Don't poke at it, you'll only make it worse).

Decided to ream out the hole a bit to cut out the soft spots and see what I could see. There's definitely a pipe running parallel to the floor, North/South that I can see. Lots of oxidation on it, it's been wet there for a while. Didn't get far enough to actually determine what the pipe is connected to or where it runs. Thankfully (I think) it's a fairly small area of damage all things considered.

Edit: Almost forgot, I placed a dry bucket below the open hole at 1220EST to see if I can gauge how much is leaking through. Maybe not the most exact way, but I'm curious and it's what I had to work with.

Perspective from front door:


Closer to Leak #2:


Post Finger going through:


Reamed Out:

 

You say the wall directly in front of the stairs as you are going down is the back of the tub. I would open up that wall. I assume that wall is not textured and a smooth wall is so much easier to repair. Is it a vaulted ceiling at that point or does it slope the same as the stairs.

 

Wall at the back of the tub follows the slope of the stairs. I've only seen this actually leak (and swell) once, when my wife was taking an actual bath and I saw water dripping through. That's why I'm thinking the drain.

Prior to that, I ONCE noticed the steps damp in a small area after the shower had been ran, but I thought it was from wet dog paws (barely noticeable). I just can't seem to get the blasted drain out.

But the biggest reason I was considering opening up the ceiling was due to possible mold.


(another edit):

In the first picture, taken from the front door, you can see the black spot (Leak #2) on the ceiling to the right of the air freshener.

In the last three pictures show the water spots directly below the master bathroom. However those discolorations don't show where it was leaking when the tub was full with the drain in. The cat, well, that just ended up in the photos, but where the baby gate is sitting is pretty much above Leak #2.

The first doorway on the left is a full bath, 2nd on the left is a closet, striaght ahead is a bedroom, and the doorway on the right is the master bedroom. Stairs are on the immediate right.

 

Oxidation on pipe means it is a joint of some kind and very much can be a small/slow leak. Oxidation occurs when the flux is not wiped after soldering a joint. Run water at various places until you find the one that operates through that pipe. See if you notice any moisture on the pipe.

On the tub issue, lets cross fingers, you mentioned a active leak when your wife was taking a bath. Remove the cover on the overflow from the inside of the tub. Remove 2 screws and the drain stop should pull out (round tube on end of couple metal dowels). You will see that overflow drain pipe itself. Between the overflow pipe and the tub there should be a thick gasket (donut gasket). If this gasket is missing or broken or loose without a good seal, then the source of water may very well be splash getting to the overflow while taking a bath. Likewise, water can get in during a shower, albeit not as much.

 

At home so I can actually attempt some things now.

Update on the pipe, Leak #2: I cut out a bit more of the ceiling and got the wife to run some water. Seems to be the cold water supply to the 2nd floor, though it's only a 1/2" pipe. (Is that a normal size for this kinda thing?)

Here's some pictures of what I'm seeing:

Facing North:

Facing South:


Discoloration seems to be isolated to just that spot. I took a section of paper towel and tried to run it up and down that pipe. The only wet spot seems to be right there on the "glob", though I can't quite tell if that's a coupling hiding under that mess or not. And what I can see of the rest of the pipe looks clean.

edit: not a coupling there

Could I have been so lucky as to have magically found the problem area that easily?


Off to go pull the drain overflow from the tub and see what I can find. Maybe this thread should get moved to plumbing now after all....

 

I misspoke earlier - the drain stopper lever is part of the overflow assembly. The lever just isn't connected to anything.

Here's what it looks like behind the overflow cover. I'm assuming that cracked black hard as a rock piece is supposed to be the rubber boot:

 

Does it look like it is water tight? or Do you think we lucked out and found the source?

Maybe the wife needs to be a little less agressive with the rubber ducky during bathtime

You can temp. fix the copper line in you hallway by getting one of these rubber boot sleeves until you can get to the repair. Use a Repair Clamp to Fix a Small Copper Pipe Leak - One Project Closer

 

Our friend Larosa has covered donut gaskets in a previous post. He also inbeds a picture so you know what you are looking for.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/to...flow-leak.html

 

I do believe we may have found the leak on the tub. I put a bit of water in with the drain plug in place, no leaks, so I'm now pretty sure it was coming from the overflow. There's definitely a chunk missing out of the doughnut.

Still watching the pipe for leaks, seems to just be that one spot where the "blob" is. Either side of it seems dry so far.