Hello -- I've been plagued with a 4 huge leaks under my shower into my LR ceiling over past 31 months. It has been diagnosed as roof leak, squirrel damage in the atttic, and a worn shower cartridge. A thermal imaging company said I had a "water reservoir" under the shower that would periodically overflow, causing leaks. The leak can *never* be recreated when a plumber/roofer/claims adjuster was there. Much, much money has been spent trying to address every identifiable issue, all to no avail. Last month I had the old shower demolished and an entirely new one built, including a concrete slab and new drain, ceramic tile floor, 1/2" thick backerboard, waterproof membrane on shower floor and 2 ft. up walls, all new tile to the ceiling incl. thinset. After SEVEN days of use, the fourth leak appeared!

Then I had a brainstorm: About 6 years ago I had the tile floor in that bathroom updated. I remember now that the handyman said the original tile (ca. 1983, builders grade) was so hard to remove he was going to put the new tile over the old tile. That seemed odd to me at the time, but apparently it's not as unusual as it seems. Is it possible that over an 8 year period, the membrane (or something) has gone awry between the 2 tile levels causing the "water reservoir" diagnosed by the thermal imaging company? I was skeptical of that at the time, but now I wonder. As an aside, when this happens, it is not a fast leak. I typically shower around 7 AM, leave around 8 AM, return home around 5-6 PM to find the damage, which include large water bladders on the ceiling, soaked carpet, and rivulets running down the walls. There's no telling how long it's been leaking during the day.

This is long but I'm at my wit's end. Any tiling experts out there who can weigh in on my idea?

 

Welcome to the forums.

I think it's time to start looking from below to find the leak - cut open the living room ceiling and get this job done right once and for all.

 

Oh, it's been cut open for all 4 leaks to be examined from both the shower and the LR. In fact, it's a gaping hole right now. That's the problem -- water source appears to be "undiagnosable." Hoping some tiling person on this forum may have some input about my idea on tile-over-tile problems.

 

1983 shower pan is probably not your friend. Putting a tile floor over a 1983 tile floor installation is compounding the situation. IMO, it will be best to demo the shower and pan, start over and have a proper preslope installed with liner and final slope. It may require removing the first foot or so of tile on the walls as well, but you can install contrasting or matching tile there when you finish it out.

 

What kind of barrier do you use? Shower door? Shower curtain? Is there flexible caulking in the corner of the shower or did they use grout? Is there an access where you can see behind the shower and look at the plumbing? Send us some pictures of the shower from top and below. The more the merrier, we are pretty good at tracking things down.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html

By the way, ALL tile is a bear to remove. Your handyman was just being lazy by not removing the tile. I just gutted a bathroom today. Fun? - no. But has to be done.

 

Hi Chandler -- Quick clarification: the tile on tile was the bathroom floor, not in the shower stall. My theory is that water is somehow getting from the shower to pool between the two tile levels to form a reservoir. Original shower totally demolished in June 2014, including shower pan. All new tile, up to the ceiling, 1/2" thick backerboard for walls, waterproof membrane on shower floor up 2 ft. of shower walls. Shower floor now ceramic tile over a concrete slab, with a new drain.

Trying hard to upload photos. Challenging, even with directions. I'll get there.

 

Attachment 36537[ATTACH]
I have quite a few photos but can't seem to upload to site...can't be sure what I'm doing wrong. I think I've managed one. Can't be sure what it is. I'll try again.

 

Hoping this works. Wow - after choosing the photo how do you get back to the "compose screen"? Trying hard here, guys, but this ain't easy.

 

New shower floor -- shower pan gone, concrete bed with ceramic (river rock) tile, ne drain. It is sloped. I checked and the caulking in shower corners is springy (soft? flexible?) I don't know the correct term. Then again it's only 6 weeks old.

 

The floor tile that originally cracked is marked by the screw (has since been replaced). It is between the shower stall and the toilet. I wondered if its cracking might have something to do with water pooling under it, possibly on top of the first tile layer. If that membrane has breached, couldn't that be a place for water to collect?

 

Bathroom is very small, toilet only 10 ins. from shower.


New shower drain


Interesting view of LR ceiling from hole


Here's a photo of a heat register which is directly next to shower. Has a lot of rust on it.

Also, I had a shower curtain before, replaced it in June 2014 with frameless shower door. Some seeping under the sliding door while showering, but I wiped it up ASAP upon getting out. (I was disappointed with that fact, esp. considering the cost of that frameless door.)

 

If you have a small level, put it on the shower curb under the framless door and see if it slopes toward the shower or if it is flat. You have already noted leakage. The door people assume the curbs are sloped appropriately toward the shower so water will drain.

Check the seal all around the shower door as well to make sure the caulking is intact.

You did great with the pics.

 

Just throwing out some ideas.
It concerns me that you can recreate the leak, by taking a shower and returning later, and the pros cannot.

If someone told you the old floor was too hard to tear out, start there. The old floor must come out, hard or not. I do quite a few tile tear outs and it's no fun.

My guess is the wax ring under toilet is leaking. You have a double layer of tile and you need a built up wax ring. The only problem with my theory is that the pros who came to diagnose your leak should have recognized this immediately.

It's a longshot, but try showering as usual at 7 am, wait until 6 pm. Do not use commode...

Try to not use any water in this bath, except shower, and see if you can isolate that water is actually coming from shower (or over curb as czizzi said).

 

Did you take any pictures during the remodel before the tile went in?

I also am concerned about the alcove shadow box built into the tile wall inside the shower. If not properly flashed, would definitely be a leak source. Is there only one or are there several built in boxes?

 

I'm including photos of the two niches, one is about 18" from the floor (leg shaving niche), and the larger one is up higher for shampoo, etc. I cannot imagine that the professional installers did not prepare the wall properly for the niches. They were referrals from a coworker, from her sister, from her sister's boss...and so on.

The previous 1983 shower had no niches but it was the shower in place for 3 of the 4 leaks, which is why my hypothesis might be that a damaged membrane -- or something -- having to do with the double-tiled bathroom floor was somehow allowing the "collection" of water in a reservoir until something causes it to go over the top, so to speak.

Top niche


Bottom niche

 

I have photos of the shower curb with a level. It seems perfectly level to my eye. I've been reading about things that other peole with frameless shower doors have used yo stop this -- dams, etc. BUt I want to emphasize that this door only went in in July 2014. Caulking is intact (only 6 weeks old). They caulked and sealed it and left behind the unused caulk and sealer for me.

Original shower had a shower curtain. There was always some spray, but I was not a person to allow water pooling -- my mother would not have allowed THAT as a child, so I have good water clean up habits (!).


Level on shower curb


Level in shower corner

 

I'm at a loss.
In the first picture posted, you can clearly see the bottom of shower area.
I can see the drain, supply lines, curb area, pretty much all the important areas. I see no leaks. It is hard to see a leak just from photos but I don't see anything obvious.

If you have a leak this bad, it should be obvious where it's coming from.
I would stop using shower for as long as it takes to verify that the leak is coming from it or elsewhere.

 

Call the shower door people and ask that a sweep be put on the bottom of the door to seal off the curb area. Advise them that the curb is perfectly flat and you are having water breaching the shower area.

As before, inspect all inside corners (including the niches) to verify that flexible caulking was used. If not, add some.

Make sure there is a good seal at the faceplate for the shower faucet handle and water is not getting behind it.

Verify that the bathroom plumbing vent line that exits the roof has a good rain boot on it and it is not cracked in any way.

Make a courtesy call to the tile installers and mention the perfectly flat curb, I always slope mine slightly toward the shower. Not noticeable but sloped for drainage. I also am curious how the liner was done at the curb, but without renovation pictures, it will remain a mystery.

Lastly, you may want to open up the ceiling just a little more to inspect the toilet area from below. Can't rule the toilet out either.

 

czizzi,
Look at the heating register picture above. It's pretty good resolution. It appears there may have been some water damage at some point (above register).
Any thoughts. It may be nothing.

 

All I see is a register that should have been replaced, but they tried painting it instead and the rust has bled through. Keep in mind that is is a wet environment, most likely has a towel rack located directly above it. OP mentioned previous use of a shower curtain and lots of splash issues. Not plumbing related in that the supply lines to the shower are under the floor and not in the wall above.

I am curious what the two gray pipes hanging from the ceiling cavity shot are. Is it old quest lines that were updated to copper?

 

I was told the gray pipes are "dead ends" from when a previous owner updated PVC to copper. Well, as you can see the mystery is where the water is coming from...even my untrained eye would know that water stains should be seen on the wood in the open cavity from the shower stall. Someone else said I should consider the toilet. I've used that toilet and sink for the 1 year that I didn't use the old shower. And there was never an odor involved. Since the ceiling is already wrecked, maybe it's worth pulling some more drywall away to see the toilet underside.

I talked to the tile association and they were skeptical that tile over tile could be responsible. However, a coworker had a similar issue in an old partment that had a balcony with travertine tiles. You had to step up to the balcony from the LR. Whenever it rained, the carpet near the sliding glass door got soaked. The maintenance dept. spent a lot of time working on the sliding door seal, to no avail. They finally diagnosed that the membrane under the tile was damaged, allowing water to get under it, follow gravity, and seep into the apt. He said they didn't pull up the tile, but injected some sort of foam under the tiles. I think the interesting word there is "seep," which seems to fit my leak to a T.

So the water is escaping from some source -- I just never thought it would be like trying to find the source of the Nile!

 

Assuming this test and statement was made before the new shower was built...

I would seriously consider having bathroom floor ripped out and new installed.
I don't know if this would fix the problem, but the workmanship on the shower appears to of high quality. You have to start eliminating possibilities.
Also, I don't know how it works in VA, I'm a contractor in CA and (although I don't tile), if I performed defective work in your home, I am responsible for it, even after 6 years. That's why I'm insured. Your original tile contractor may have had a very bad idea that day.