Kitchen Remodel - Remove Beam?
#1
01-10-15, 10:55 AM
Kitchen Remodel - Remove Beam?
Greetings! Hoping to get some suggestions on how best to proceed. I have a house built in 1981 and we're beginning a remodel of the kitchen & dining room area.
To help open it up we'd really like to remove the vertical floor-to-ceiling beam that sits right in the middle of the two rooms. At the top of the vertical post is a horizontal beam that runs lengthwise across the rooms. Ideally this could come out too but it's not a big deal.
I have no idea whether either beam is structural but if so I'd assume that the vertical beam is there to support the horizontal beam. The odd thing here is that the two beams don't even touch - there's a 1/8" gap between the two, with only the nails keeping them together (see pic below).
Above the horizontal beam is the sloped roof. No attic. The beams both appear to be made of the same rough-hewn wood. Maybe cedar? Cedar certainly doesn't sound like a wood that would be strong enough to be structural.
If structural, we were contemplating having someone qualified remove both beams and replace the horizontal beam with something strong enough to not need the vertical beam for support.
So my questions:
- Do you think these are structural?
- If not structural, just rip it out? Both of them?
- Where would you start for finding someone qualified to assess the situation AND experienced enough in residential work to have an idea of reasonably priced alternatives?
- Have any other creative ideas?
Ideas & suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44673[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44674[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44675[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44676[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44677[/ATTACH]
To help open it up we'd really like to remove the vertical floor-to-ceiling beam that sits right in the middle of the two rooms. At the top of the vertical post is a horizontal beam that runs lengthwise across the rooms. Ideally this could come out too but it's not a big deal.
I have no idea whether either beam is structural but if so I'd assume that the vertical beam is there to support the horizontal beam. The odd thing here is that the two beams don't even touch - there's a 1/8" gap between the two, with only the nails keeping them together (see pic below).
Above the horizontal beam is the sloped roof. No attic. The beams both appear to be made of the same rough-hewn wood. Maybe cedar? Cedar certainly doesn't sound like a wood that would be strong enough to be structural.
If structural, we were contemplating having someone qualified remove both beams and replace the horizontal beam with something strong enough to not need the vertical beam for support.
So my questions:
- Do you think these are structural?
- If not structural, just rip it out? Both of them?
- Where would you start for finding someone qualified to assess the situation AND experienced enough in residential work to have an idea of reasonably priced alternatives?
- Have any other creative ideas?
Ideas & suggestions are much appreciated. Thanks!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44673[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44674[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44675[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44676[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44677[/ATTACH]
#2
01-10-15, 12:34 PM
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Welcome.
These load bearing questions mostly can't be answered via long distance because there are too many variables. But to get you started I'll ask some questions that other carpenters here on the site would probably like to know also.
It looks like roof runs from Microwave/Range wall up to wall showing window.
And obviously these are both exterior walls?
Measure your ceiling joists/rafters. Measure the height of rafters at outside of MW wall and outside of window. I'm guessing they are about 7-1/4" high.
If they are 3-1/2" high (2x4), you're in luck.
Also it looks like a fan and track light are hanging from beam. Is the cable feeding these on outside of beam?
These load bearing questions mostly can't be answered via long distance because there are too many variables. But to get you started I'll ask some questions that other carpenters here on the site would probably like to know also.
It looks like roof runs from Microwave/Range wall up to wall showing window.
And obviously these are both exterior walls?
Measure your ceiling joists/rafters. Measure the height of rafters at outside of MW wall and outside of window. I'm guessing they are about 7-1/4" high.
If they are 3-1/2" high (2x4), you're in luck.
Also it looks like a fan and track light are hanging from beam. Is the cable feeding these on outside of beam?
#3
01-10-15, 01:33 PM
Thanks for the quick reply.
Yeah, I figured it is more complex than could be fully answered here but I though this would be a good place to start asking questions and hopefully get pointed in the right direction.
The roof does indeed run from microwave/range up to the window. Wall height is about 8' on the microwave/range side and 14.5' on the window side. Horizontal beam length is about 21.5'.
The microwave/range wall is fully exterior but the window wall is exterior only down to the bottom of the window. Below that is a wall that divides the kitchen/dining area from the living room, and is at the centerline of the house lengthwise. The living room has a small attic space above it.
To help picture it, here's a tiny satellite pic of the exterior with red lines where those two walls are:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44700[/ATTACH]
I was able to remove a soffit vent and measure a joist on the microwave/range wall's exterior. About 7" tall there. Not sure how I'd access the joist on the window wall but I'd assume it's the same up there.
The wiring for the fan and lighting don't run outside of the horizontal beam, so that'll definitely have to be addressed if that beam is replaced or taken down.
Yeah, I figured it is more complex than could be fully answered here but I though this would be a good place to start asking questions and hopefully get pointed in the right direction.
The roof does indeed run from microwave/range up to the window. Wall height is about 8' on the microwave/range side and 14.5' on the window side. Horizontal beam length is about 21.5'.
The microwave/range wall is fully exterior but the window wall is exterior only down to the bottom of the window. Below that is a wall that divides the kitchen/dining area from the living room, and is at the centerline of the house lengthwise. The living room has a small attic space above it.
To help picture it, here's a tiny satellite pic of the exterior with red lines where those two walls are:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44700[/ATTACH]
I was able to remove a soffit vent and measure a joist on the microwave/range wall's exterior. About 7" tall there. Not sure how I'd access the joist on the window wall but I'd assume it's the same up there.
The wiring for the fan and lighting don't run outside of the horizontal beam, so that'll definitely have to be addressed if that beam is replaced or taken down.
#5
01-10-15, 02:44 PM
Following Brian's disclaimer......do you have a basement below this area? If so, is there a supporting member directly below this post and beam? All supporting walls must bear to ground. While it appears to be a decorative post and beam (only connected with toenails) and a big gap between the two, please get the blessings of a structural engineer before removing it. That was a crappy place to put a post, BTW. Is the beam below sheetrock grade. Is it resting on sheetrock or on rafter members? Are the beam ends embedded past the sheetrock?
#6
01-10-15, 05:28 PM
There is a basement below. The one supporting pole down there is not under the kitchen post, it's directly below the window wall and supports an I-beam. Just open space in the basement directly below the vertical kitchen post.
Is it possible that the horizontal beam is anchored at each end and provides support for the roof despite the vertical beam apparently being decorative? The material (cedar?) makes this seem unlikely although it seems (to my inexperienced mind) that a 21' span would need some kind of support.
It looks as though the sheetrock butts up to the beam along the length of it as well as at each end, so it must be attached somehow to the rafters and end supports.
Definitely a crappy post location. Lots of crappy elements in this kitchen & dining room. Looking forward to removing them and making it much more functional.
I'm definitely going to err on the side of caution and have a pro look at it. Would a residential structural engineer pulled out of the (virtual) phone book likely be knowledgeable in alternate solutions if one is needed, or should I be looking for a specific type of structural engineer? Or is this more likely to be knowledge I'd have to get from two separate experts?
Is it possible that the horizontal beam is anchored at each end and provides support for the roof despite the vertical beam apparently being decorative? The material (cedar?) makes this seem unlikely although it seems (to my inexperienced mind) that a 21' span would need some kind of support.
It looks as though the sheetrock butts up to the beam along the length of it as well as at each end, so it must be attached somehow to the rafters and end supports.
Definitely a crappy post location. Lots of crappy elements in this kitchen & dining room. Looking forward to removing them and making it much more functional.
I'm definitely going to err on the side of caution and have a pro look at it. Would a residential structural engineer pulled out of the (virtual) phone book likely be knowledgeable in alternate solutions if one is needed, or should I be looking for a specific type of structural engineer? Or is this more likely to be knowledge I'd have to get from two separate experts?
#7
01-10-15, 05:39 PM
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Looking at the Satellite picture, the other half of your house is about the same size, with a lower pitched roof.
We already know there's a bearing wall under ridge. Is there something similar to your kitchen beam in the other side of house? This could be a similar beam or a wall running in the same direction of kitchen beam at about the same distance from exterior wall.
We already know there's a bearing wall under ridge. Is there something similar to your kitchen beam in the other side of house? This could be a similar beam or a wall running in the same direction of kitchen beam at about the same distance from exterior wall.
#8
01-10-15, 07:42 PM
Assuming you're asking about the living room area, there are no beams or posts there. Just a flat 8' ceiling with a low-clearance attic space above it. The living room is pretty much identical in size to the kitchen/dining area. I suppose what you're getting at is that if the living room roof doesn't have a beam supporting it there's likely no reason for the kitchen/dining area to need one? That would make sense to me.
Living room...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44714[/ATTACH]
If you're actually asking about the north half of the house (see pic below)...
For reference, the satellite photo is taken from the south side of the house. The kitchen/dining area is in the SW quarter of the house and the living room is in the SE quarter of the house. It's a side-to-side split-level, so the north half of the house sits half a level above the south half. Family room & garage are on a slab, halfway vertically between basement and kitchen/dining/living room areas. Bedrooms are directly above the family room & garage. I believe there's a steel post & I-beam between the garage & family room, supporting the bedroom area.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44713[/ATTACH]
Living room...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44714[/ATTACH]
If you're actually asking about the north half of the house (see pic below)...
For reference, the satellite photo is taken from the south side of the house. The kitchen/dining area is in the SW quarter of the house and the living room is in the SE quarter of the house. It's a side-to-side split-level, so the north half of the house sits half a level above the south half. Family room & garage are on a slab, halfway vertically between basement and kitchen/dining/living room areas. Bedrooms are directly above the family room & garage. I believe there's a steel post & I-beam between the garage & family room, supporting the bedroom area.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]44713[/ATTACH]
#9
01-10-15, 08:14 PM
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Yeah,
It's hard without seeing it. It looks like the top of stairs leading up from living area is the wall with the transom windows at roof ridge.
I would call an architect before an engineer. They're easier to find and if they can't look at it, they would point you to someone who does these small jobs.
My opinion is even if you can't remove this beam, you could at least remove the post. This is win-win. The architect may have you take out beam and replace it with a structural beam/laminated beam, but that would be pretty painless. If you get lucky, it'll take 5 minutes for them to tell you just remove the post.
It's hard without seeing it. It looks like the top of stairs leading up from living area is the wall with the transom windows at roof ridge.
I would call an architect before an engineer. They're easier to find and if they can't look at it, they would point you to someone who does these small jobs.
My opinion is even if you can't remove this beam, you could at least remove the post. This is win-win. The architect may have you take out beam and replace it with a structural beam/laminated beam, but that would be pretty painless. If you get lucky, it'll take 5 minutes for them to tell you just remove the post.
#10
01-11-15, 10:12 AM
Yep, the transom window wall is the same wall that divides the stairs going up from the stairs going down.
Thanks for all the help guys. I'll get an expert on it to confirm. If I get the green light to remove the post I may just sheetrock over the beam to keep things clean & simple.
Thanks for all the help guys. I'll get an expert on it to confirm. If I get the green light to remove the post I may just sheetrock over the beam to keep things clean & simple.
