Open closet wider but I have plaster

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Old 07-11-15, 03:24 PM
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Open closet wider but I have plaster

I have been trying to see the best way to open a closet from 30 to 60 inch.

I have read so many things to open the wall including using a saws all, rotor zip , score with grout tool, or an oscillating tool.

Dust and cracking are the issues.

I have read to score with a knife or grout tool but I think that could take forever.

Sawsall with carbide..diamond? Bit has been suggested..videos I have seen seem to show it works, although I feel it will snag or vibrate.

Root zips seem to eat bids even with grout bit and lots of dust.

Oscillating tools like the fein multi master seem to not give dust, but someone mentioned the saw blade attachment..not sure what that is.

I just remembered I also read an angle grinder with diamond blade...but I think it will be dusty.

I would have to buy all these power tools or I can borrow my brothers dremelmax, but I do not want to burn it out...read many saying that's what happens.

Of course I read about having a shop vac and negative pressure and wetting the plaster so that there is minimal dust.

Hopefully someone can tell me what's best. I think the fein option is the one I'm leaning toward, but not sure what pieces I need.
 
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Old 07-11-15, 03:42 PM
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If you are making a closet bigger, something has to be getting smaller. What is it? Some pics might help.
 
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Old 07-11-15, 05:36 PM
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I just remembered I also read an angle grinder with diamond blade...but I think it will be dusty.
Extremely..... that would be your last choice.

I just did some major rewiring in an older plaster house. I used a vibrating saw with a bimetal blade to cut in all the new electrical boxes. It did an excellent job and the dust was kept to a minimum.


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Old 07-11-15, 07:06 PM
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Anything you use is going to make dust, just going to have to get past that fact.
While that diamond blade in an ossilating saw may work it will take a really long time and may well burn up the blade before you finish all the cuts.
I could make all three cuts in about 10 min. with a 4-1/2" grinder with a diamond blade.
Have someone running a shop vac close to it to catch some of the dust.
 
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Old 07-11-15, 10:29 PM
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So so far we have someone say dont use a grinder and someone says use a grinder.

I got my brothers Multimax Dremel and got a carbide tip. Not sure if that will work. Read good things about Fein.

Here is the picture of the closet I want to enhance
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Old 07-11-15, 10:58 PM
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Hasn't been mentioned yet, but you realize you may have to re-frame the whole area, yes? Unlikely the header is wide enough.

As to tools, yeah, you could use a grinder if you have enough experience, but you will have way bigger issues than just dust in this project.

Have you thought how you will match the trim? You can't just buy that off the shelf.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 03:26 AM
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It looks like basic 1x4 oak with a band around it so it shouldn't be a big deal to match the woodwork although sometimes it can be challenging to match the stain/finish of new wood to the old aged wood.
As mentioned above - be prepared for dust! remove and/or cover up what you can, maybe even seal of the doorway to prevent the dust from migrating to other rooms.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 08:37 AM
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Yes I know that I will have to reframe and match. I want to make sure I don't add work by destroying plaster. So dust isn't the only concern.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 11:34 AM
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I'm not sure you can reframe the opening and not disturb the plaster but it isn't that big of a deal to patch/replace plaster with drywall products.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 05:46 PM
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The trim looks to me to be more like chestnut but since there really isn't a close up it's not easy to say "without a doubt".

If your plaster has sand as an aggregate, and it most likely does, a diamond something is required. I have cut lots of old plaster and generally use the grinder.

Water mist the plaster as you cut and as Joe mentioned, have someone follow the edge of the blade with a good vac. You can enclose the area with poly taped to ceiling, floor and walls. Providing the negative pressure would be nice.

The other consideration is that too much vibration would knock the plaster keys loose from adjoining wall areas, that is where the grinder has an edge. It is high speed and fast, the cuts can be made in several minutes. The diamond blade isn't great at cutting the lath if is wood but this is where the Fein tool would come into play. You can also cut the lath with a small circular saw and it may help to screw a rip of plywood to the stud closets to your cut and extend the edge of the plywood to that cut line. It will help minimize vibration through the lath and plaster.

Make sure of your cut lines, allowing for placement of the proper studding for your rough opening. The last thing you want to do is have to recut.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 07:29 PM
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Just looks like cheap flat sawn pine to me with pine back binding molding.
 
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Old 07-13-15, 04:29 AM
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Joe, it seems to have an open grain, thus negating pine. Obviously, we are not there to see it in person. It has been my experience that many people, homeowners and builders alike, are confused when it comes to chestnut and oak. They both exhibit similar grain characteristics but the weight of the wood is a sure sign of identifying it. Chestnut is very light, (compared to oak), and also very brittle. This would be a warning to mrordinary that when removing the boards, don't get too aggressive if you are hoping to reuse the pieces.
 
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Old 07-13-15, 07:46 AM
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Well thanks for trying to figure out what the wood type is. Took off the wood trim on inside...did end up breaking part of 1. It is lightweight. I thought it was oak but now chestnut is a new hypothesis. I'll take a closer pic later.

So with a grinder as a solution I would need a shroud, but I have yet to buy a grinder. I am guessing variable speed is ideal, paddle button, keyless.
 

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Old 07-13-15, 07:49 AM
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Could you go into a little more specifics about the plywood. I am guessing you mean put it on the outside of the closet and screw into the stud?
 
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Old 07-13-15, 03:42 PM
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You don't need a special shroud for the grinder. Just hold the nozzle end of the vac hose right at the grinder blade. You'll be surprised at how much debris and dust you do collect. Of course, having a clean vac filter helps. Having a second person will certainly help keep control of everything.

If you attach the plywood to the stud nearest your cut line and keep the plywood edge at the cut line, you can use it to guide your grinder blade. The plywood will help to minimize vibration and unwanted cracking of the plaster. If the plaster is in bad shape to start with then this suggestion isn't going to help much.

The plywood will also guide your circular saw if you choose that to cut the wood lath.
 
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Old 07-13-15, 04:14 PM
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Or use a circular saw with a cheap diamond blade. Screw straight guide boards to the plaster on the out side of your cut line to keep it straight.
 
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Old 07-14-15, 05:12 PM
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tore the plaster down in the back

This is a non load bearing wall. They did not have the normal lumber side by side. They did not have a jack stud just the king stud. I will be putting a 2x4 header and the king and jack stud.

I will have to take out two 2 x 4s since I am expanding the closet. Instead of removing them can I make them a cripple? Or will that cause issues with the plaster?

If I can't make them a cripple where they are, then I guess I can cut them out and then reuse?

Attachment 53293

I have not removed the plaster in the front because I figured it would start to crack when I cut the lath between two studs.

So I figured before I do that cut, I could put liquid nail on the jack stud, but then should I put some drywall screws on the plaster side?

I was wondering why my original frame was not attached to the header and also why there was a projection past the frame. Should I remove the extra part? I put the white door moulding side by side so you have an idea of what I mean.
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Sorry having issues with attachments...the one with my finger is the full length stud i want to cripple.
 
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Old 07-14-15, 05:25 PM
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Attachment 53303 The first picture is the fireblock...not sure why it isnt rotating it the way I have it.

I suppose I have to cut that out and then put it back in. Not sure why there was no fireblock on the other part of the closet. Perhaps they redid the closet at some point.

The second picture needs to be rotated right. It is just an additional one to show you the current openingAttachment 53304Attachment 53305Name:  fireblock.jpg
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Old 07-15-15, 04:17 AM
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Your idea of attaching a stud with construction adhesive to the back of the lath is valid. Of course you want to carefully knock the plaster keys off in the line of the stud. Not sure the screws will really do you much good. They will pull through the plaster and typically split the lath. If you pre drill a hole to accommodate the screw you will prevent the splitting but I would not get too concerned about the screws if you use a good polyurethane const. adhesive and clean the dust off the back of the lath where you attach the stud. You will attach the stud at the plates.

The projections of the jamb legs above the jamb head are normal. You should see a groove (dado) where the head is inset to the legs. This stabilizes the head and as long as things haven't split at that point I would just let it as is if you are reusing it. Since this was a narrow door, the trim guy didn't nail the head jamb to the framing and again, this is not unusual. A longer header would require a few nails through the head jamb into framing to keep it fixed but attaching the trim basically does that as well.

The piece you are thinking of as fire blocking is probably just a framing element inserted to stabilize the corner stud from the perpendicular wall. As you may notice, a common practice was to allow space behind a corner stud at a perpendicular wall to allow for running the lath in continuous fashion from one room to another. That block was placed at some midpoint so that the corner stud could then be nailed into it to prevent movement.
 
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Old 07-15-15, 01:35 PM
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No bottom plate. The put it directly to the subfloor. EDIT *My wife wanted to put a light in the closet, and in that investigation I found out that the basement and second floor joists are above and below the stud cavity. Just did a seach and found out that this is typical of balloon framing. Since that is how the structure was I guess it just makes sense to leave it as it is?
Option 1 would be the best idea for this non load bearing wall?

Option 1:
Not use a bottom plate?


Option 2:
Cut out the king stud to slide a 2 x4 under

CON: Not sure if I can do that so that the stud sits flat..plus the piece will only be at most 4". Also not sure if i can cut the king stud straight and also without damaging keys.. I guess the dremel multisaw would be best for this option.

Option 3
Put a bottom plate, put a new king stud, add a jack stud.
Should I continue to not have a bottom plate? I could try to cut out the king stud to the right and then side a 2 x4 under and then put a jack stud

CON: Trying not to overhang the closet much more on the other side of the opening. At the same point I am only getting 4" in. (Maybe get 1 x4 jack stud to compensate? but that means that the bottom plate is 3")


I was thinking of just putting a 2 x4 under the jack stud, but that makes no sense..it would just be 2 inches.
 
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Last edited by mrordinary; 07-15-15 at 04:04 PM.
  #21  
Old 07-16-15, 03:55 AM
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You could cut the studs for a double or triple plate to raise the level of the cut line, thus making it easier to make the cut. If your stud is lined up with the joist below then you don't necessarily need a plate for structural issues, especially on a non- load bearing wall.

To help keep things stable, if you don't do the full plate, you could install tight blocking between the studs at the floor line. Const. adhesive and a few screws or nails would keep it in place and keep studs from moving. Obviously, you could nail laterally through the stud into the blocking if you choose. You could stack the blocks a few high to further give you a substantial backing for nailing baseboard.
 
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Old 07-16-15, 05:36 AM
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Tight blocking

I am not sure if I understand that term. My guess is that it means between the studs, so a bottom plate that is 14.5 inches.

If that is what you mean, I will not have that space. I am planning to use the king stud on the right. Then there will be a span of 60 inches.

Also is there a way to cut the king stud cleanly to put a bottom plate and also to avoid vibration to the keys?
 
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Old 07-17-15, 03:37 AM
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To cut the stud you can use a guide block mounted next to it. Using a sawzall, oscillating tool or even a good old handsaw, place the block that you want to use that reflects the plate height next to the stud and temporarily screw or nail it in place to give you a surface on which to guide the saw blade. If using a sawzall, run at a speed that produces the least vibration. That can vary with the type of wood, the blade and how much weight the stud might be carrying. You can screw a scrap of wood across as many studs as you can bridge at a height several inches above the cut line to help minimize movement.

To make it a little easier, you can double or triple the block and thus the plate as well. This gets you up off the floor a little further and gives you more visual as well as tool clearance.
 
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