Dirty water after backwash


  #1  
Old 09-09-07, 04:55 PM
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Dirty water after backwash

I am brand-new to this forum.
My problem is that after my water softener regenerates/backwashes my water is dirty for a couple of hours. All my valves (see below) are Fleck 5600 and they all seem to manually cycle correctly. My softener is using salt and is backwashing appropriately and seems to be softening okay as well. There are two people total in the house. It has been suggested to me that the problem may be that I had my carbon filter backwashing too frequently. I shifted from every three days to every six. It seems to have helped some. Iím wondering if I could just get a new valve with an adjustable backwash setting, such as the Fleck 5600se or 6600, and that an increase in backwash duration might fix the problem. Iíve bought parts here and there over the past three years and have relied on what I could learn on the internet. Thanks so much for any advice, JJ

My water conditions three years ago were:
Hardness as CaCO3 100 mg/l
Iron 1.7 mg/l
pH 6.4

In May 2007 my water tested as:
Hardness as CaCO3 150 mg/l
Iron 11 mg/l
pH 6.3

And post filtering in May 2007:
Hardness as CaCO3 <1 mg/l
Iron
 
  #2  
Old 09-15-07, 05:52 PM
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pH, backwash etc...

Your pH is still too low.

Consider adding COROSEX to that calcite bed - Aim for an output pH of at least 7.5 to protect household plumbing, appliances, faucets, and fixtures.

Is the dirty water salty/foamy ?

I'd steer you towards the fleck 7000 valve, since you can use the 32mm riser and it has multiple backwashes and a solid rapid rinse to flush the debris after backwash with filtered water.

What pressure and flow rates can your well pump produce ?
 
  #3  
Old 09-20-07, 08:57 PM
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regarding advice

Thanks for the advice Greg.
How much Corosex would you recommend adding to a cubic foot of calcite? The Corosex documentation recommends at least a 50 percent calcite content to prevent cementing. Would you suggest adding a half cubic foot of Corosex to my cubic foot of calcite? I have a chlorine injection system, so I could add soda ash. Do you see an advantage to either choice? Finally, Iím surprised youíd suggest a slightly basic pH. I would have thought the goal would be as close to neutral as possible. Is the 7.5 erring on the side of caution or does the additional basicness, so to speak, serve as a buffer? Thanks so much! JJ
 
  #4  
Old 09-21-07, 01:18 AM
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pH manipulation

You're exactly right, the 7.5 minimum is to provide a buffer against further potential corrosion through disolved O2 or CO2. The ideal range to prevent issues is 7.5 - 8.0

I'm not a fan of soda ash (sodium carbonate) for residential potable water treatment, since it is difficult to find high grade product at reasonable prices. The stuff that they sell for swimming pools often includes heavy metal deposits, which of course have taste and health implications.

You could alternatively add caustic (NaOH) through an eductor or an additional pump. My experience with caustic on residential applications is that people complain about a bitter taste. It is also a pain to store/handle at home. The advantage of caustic is that a little goes a very long way and you can make almost instant changes to pH by varying injection rates.

I'd add .5ft3 of corosex into your 10x47 tank, which is the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM level that I'd fill that tank to.

Remember to backwash vigorously for at least 10 minutes after the media addition to release fines and dust.

On the subject of backwash, the calcite and corosex is really maxing out the ability of the 5600 platform's ability to backwash - get that valve replaced with something beefier.
 
  #5  
Old 09-21-07, 08:32 PM
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Excellent reply and no dirty water today

Hey Greg, I'm very impressed with your replies. You seem very knowledgeable without overselling your opinions or expertise. How refreshing! Thanks

I assume that when you say the valve should be beefier, you mean something with a greater flow rate like a one inch or one and a quarter inch valve. Let me know if I'm wrong about that. Thanks

I replaced my 5600 with a 6600 before I read your 7000 valve suggestion. I now realize that's probably what you mean by beefier as I notice the 7000 is a one and a quarter inch valve. In any case, I programmed the 6600 to increase the 10 minute rapid rinse to 15 minutes and my water ran clear this morning after a scheduled regeneration, so I'm feeling pretty good about that. I set the valve to regenerate every fourth day as an override as I imagine my filter is dealing with iron and not just water hardness and that I can't depend on the volume regeneration variable the 6600 comes up with based on my inputs.

The 6600 comes with a manual and a programming guide, but I wish there were more details. For example, it's unclear what impact setting the water hardness and grain capacity has on the filter. I suppose it sets the volume allowed before regeneration, but it'd be nice to have a chart or formula describing the variables involved. Also I think the displayed reserve capacity is odd. Does this indicate the volume left before regeneration? Why does the manual read it is the volume of water in reserve for the present day? Odd. I emailed the folks at Pentair to see if they had any additional documentation.

Thanks everybody for reading my post and thanks to Greg for the replies. Somebody might just suggest I hire a pro, but I really enjoy working on my water filtration myself. I occasionally throw good money after bad as I experiment with what works. But by gosh, I've learned tons and can take apart my valves if I have to, and I don't pay labor costs. My wife jokes that I must have a tv in our crawlspace and that I just go down there and inflate an air mattress and hang-out! He, he, JJ

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
You're exactly right, the 7.5 minimum is to provide a buffer against further potential corrosion through disolved O2 or CO2. The ideal range to prevent issues is 7.5 - 8.0

I'm not a fan of soda ash (sodium carbonate) for residential potable water treatment, since it is difficult to find high grade product at reasonable prices. The stuff that they sell for swimming pools often includes heavy metal deposits, which of course have taste and health implications.

You could alternatively add caustic (NaOH) through an eductor or an additional pump. My experience with caustic on residential applications is that people complain about a bitter taste. It is also a pain to store/handle at home. The advantage of caustic is that a little goes a very long way and you can make almost instant changes to pH by varying injection rates.

I'd add .5ft3 of corosex into your 10x47 tank, which is the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM level that I'd fill that tank to.

Remember to backwash vigorously for at least 10 minutes after the media addition to release fines and dust.

On the subject of backwash, the calcite and corosex is really maxing out the ability of the 5600 platform's ability to backwash - get that valve replaced with something beefier.
 
  #6  
Old 09-21-07, 09:58 PM
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6600 Valve

You're very kind.

The 6600 didn't get much publicity in US when it was introduced becuase of the 6700's debut shortly after.
It's a good valve though, built on the 5600 drivetrain with some minor differences.

The electronics are solid and quite flexible once you get to to know them. I don't like the NiCd battery that they had when first released. Does yours have the NiCd ?

I have programmed many 6600's over the years, so I can answer any questions that you might have on how it all works.

The 7000 is an all new product designed from the ground up to be high-flow and high-backwash while overcoming some of the frustrations of the cam/switch design of all prior fleck/pentair valves. Fleck did such a good job that Clack copied it when designing theirs (That's a long sordid story that might invoke some flames here).

You're right on, the beefiness refers primarily to service flow rates and backwash flow rates.

Which tank did you put the 6600 on ? - The softener or the calcite filter ?
 
  #7  
Old 09-21-07, 10:37 PM
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6600 valve

The 6600 no longer has the NiCd, it has a slot for a 9 volt.

My problem was that my softener was giving me about 25 gallons of dirty water after regeneration so I put the 6600 on the softener and programmed the rinse time from 10 to 15 minutes. This seems to have done the trick as I get clear water now after regeneration.

My only 6600 question is whether my thinking is correct in that as my water is only about 9 grains per gallon hardness and my capacity is about 40k grains such that the volume between regenerations calculated by the 6600 is going to be way too high due to the fact that I'm dealing with quite a bit of iron (11 ml/l). I'm thinking the softener will need to regenerate more frequently such that it doesn't get fouled by whatever iron my calcite and centaur filters miss. I have set my softener to regenerate every three days in the past. I suppose that I could watch my water utilization data and set the 6600 to regenerate based on an average of volume of what I use per day x 3. If I use the set volume override to do that, could I also set the regeneration day override such that if I'm not using any volume of water, say if I'm on vacation, the filter would still regenerate after say seven days?

To simplify, my questions are, does an every three day regeneration seem reasonable for someone wishing to avoid iron fouling of the softener and are the 6600 volume override and regeneration day override compatible settings?

Woohoo! thanks JJ




Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
You're very kind.

The 6600 didn't get much publicity in US when it was introduced becuase of the 6700's debut shortly after.
It's a good valve though, built on the 5600 drivetrain with some minor differences.

The electronics are solid and quite flexible once you get to to know them. I don't like the NiCd battery that they had when first released. Does yours have the NiCd ?

I have programmed many 6600's over the years, so I can answer any questions that you might have on how it all works.

The 7000 is an all new product designed from the ground up to be high-flow and high-backwash while overcoming some of the frustrations of the cam/switch design of all prior fleck/pentair valves. Fleck did such a good job that Clack copied it when designing theirs (That's a long sordid story that might invoke some flames here).

You're right on, the beefiness refers primarily to service flow rates and backwash flow rates.

Which tank did you put the 6600 on ? - The softener or the calcite filter ?
 
  #8  
Old 09-22-07, 01:31 PM
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6600

The volume override setting negates the variable reserve, so I prefer not to use it, and allow the reserve logic to do it's thing - it works quite well.

The day override is completely compatibile with a '7-3' meter delayed regeneration profile, which I presume you're using.

What is your iron level after calcite & centaur ?

List out all your program settings for me and we can look at optimizing them and compensate for iron appropriately through software. - capacity changes, brine concentration, backwash timings etc...

Did you get an upflow or downflow 6600 ?
What exact softening resin are you using ?
 
  #9  
Old 09-22-07, 07:53 PM
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a) OK, no volume override, got it. I think what you may be guiding me to is a system where my softener is softening and Iím not relying on it for additional iron mitigation. In that case I can see why the reserve logic could be a good thing. Currently the valve seems to be calculating my volume to next regeneration as two point something which I assume is over two thousand gallons. With just my wife and I at home I image thatíd be quite a number of days. I suppose if iron wasnít a factor thatíd be okay, but currently I have the regeneration day override set to three!

b) Yes: ď'7-3' meter delayed regeneration profileĒ

c) I have never measured my iron after the calcite and carbon. Thatís a good idea. I usually take my water to a lab for testing. Is there an inexpensive iron test kit you like? I did have my iron after calcite, carbon, AND softener tested and iron could not be detected by a lab.

d) I have a downflow version of the 6600

e) Resin type: a cubic foot of Ionac C249 (bottom of tank) and about a half cubic foot of C108DQ-Na resin (on top) for a total of 1.5 cubic feet of resin. Shining a light through my 10x47 tank during regeneration reveals media expansion up to about 18 inches from the top of tank.

f) Thanks so much for your advice! Yeehaw!

ALL SETTINGS:
The 6600 is set to regenerate using all the default settings other than the fact I have increased the rapid rinse from 10 minutes to 15 minutes AND set the Regeneration Day Override to 3, all the other settings are default.

Stepping through my programming chart levels one through three Iíll tell you what I have:

Level one programming:
Water Hardness set in grains per gallon: 9
Regeneration time 2am

Level two programming:
System capacity 40,000 grains
Backwash 10 minutes
Brine/Slow Rinse 60 minutes
Rapid Rinse 15 minutes (5 min increase from default)
Brine Tank Refill 12 minutes
Double Backwash Option OFF
Location for Chlorination Indicator OFF
Regeneration Day Override 3 (default is OFF)
Set Volume Override OFF

Level three programming:
Display Format: US
Valve Type: 1 (default, chart notes this is the only appropriate setting)
Regeneration Type: 7-3 (meter delayed)
Flow Meter Size: ĺĒ Flow meter
Mixing Valve Location: no mixing valve
System Type 4 (only setting)
Program Lock: OFF




Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
The volume override setting negates the variable reserve, so I prefer not to use it, and allow the reserve logic to do it's thing - it works quite well.

The day override is completely compatibile with a '7-3' meter delayed regeneration profile, which I presume you're using.

What is your iron level after calcite & centaur ?

List out all your program settings for me and we can look at optimizing them and compensate for iron appropriately through software. - capacity changes, brine concentration, backwash timings etc...

Did you get an upflow or downflow 6600 ?
What exact softening resin are you using ?
 
  #10  
Old 09-22-07, 10:06 PM
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6600, iron etc...

Go to Hach.com and get the "Hardness and Iron Test Kit, Model HA-95A" - it is relatively inexpensive. You can use a simple pool/spa pH testing kit to check your pH levels. The iron kit limit is 5ppm, so simply dilute your sample 50/50 with purified water if you max it out.

Your system is indeed calculating a very high capacity.
With 40Kgr capacity and 9 gpg of influent hardness, the 6600 will calculate 4444 gallons of capacity.

You're right, I do prefer treating iron separately with chlorine, KDF or MTM/greensand so that the softener can do its job all on its own. Some people will disagree with that position, but I like to maximize longevity of each process step and make diagnostics as simple as possible.

Since you don't have a dedicated step for iron remediation, we can work with your softener until it dies

Iron has to be compensated for in programming, but we're really not quite sure how much iron is actually entering your softener yet. I'd suggest that you get that test kit and then test your raw water and after each individual treatment device. That will help us see what difference the calcite is making and what kind of challenge your softener is actually facing.

I would make the following changes right now and we can further refine the programming profile after you get your water tests done:-


Level one programming:
Water Hardness set in grains per gallon: 20
Regeneration time 2am

Level two programming:
System capacity 30,000 grains
Backwash 10 minutes
Brine/Slow Rinse 75 minutes
Rapid Rinse 10 minutes
Brine Tank Refill 16 minutes
Double Backwash Option ON
Location for Chlorination Indicator OFF
Regeneration Day Override 7
Set Volume Override OFF

I neglected to ask before; are you staggering the cleaning times of your other valves so that you don't have all of them cleaning at the same time ?

When you installed the 6600 valve, did you install a top basket/collector ?

While you're at it, get yourself a res-up drip feeder, install it in your brine tank and fill it with res-up, pro-rescare, hydroclear or pur-gard to help clean & prolong the life of your resin.
 
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Old 09-22-07, 11:27 PM
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Thanks again Greg. I hope others out there have found this thread as educational as I have!

I'm ordering the test kit you suggested now.

You may not remember that I am injecting chlorine via a Stenner pump and I have two 40 gallon retention tanks. I'm a little low on the retention volume, but I can't get very tall tanks in my crawlspace so I started with just the two 40 gallon tanks.

I will make the programming changes you suggested.

My backwashing times are staggered. so that's cool, good point.

I do not have a top basket on my 6600 softener, but I don't appear to lose any media. Should I be concerned?

I'll investigate a drip-feeder tonight.

Finally, I'll let you know when I have my test results.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Go to Hach.com and get the "Hardness and Iron Test Kit, Model HA-95A" - it is relatively inexpensive. You can use a simple pool/spa pH testing kit to check your pH levels. The iron kit limit is 5ppm, so simply dilute your sample 50/50 with purified water if you max it out.

Your system is indeed calculating a very high capacity.
With 40Kgr capacity and 9 gpg of influent hardness, the 6600 will calculate 4444 gallons of capacity.

You're right, I do prefer treating iron separately with chlorine, KDF or MTM/greensand so that the softener can do its job all on its own. Some people will disagree with that position, but I like to maximize longevity of each process step and make diagnostics as simple as possible.

Since you don't have a dedicated step for iron remediation, we can work with your softener until it dies

Iron has to be compensated for in programming, but we're really not quite sure how much iron is actually entering your softener yet. I'd suggest that you get that test kit and then test your raw water and after each individual treatment device. That will help us see what difference the calcite is making and what kind of challenge your softener is actually facing.

I would make the following changes right now and we can further refine the programming profile after you get your water tests done:-


Level one programming:
Water Hardness set in grains per gallon: 20
Regeneration time 2am

Level two programming:
System capacity 30,000 grains
Backwash 10 minutes
Brine/Slow Rinse 75 minutes
Rapid Rinse 10 minutes
Brine Tank Refill 16 minutes
Double Backwash Option ON
Location for Chlorination Indicator OFF
Regeneration Day Override 7
Set Volume Override OFF

I neglected to ask before; are you staggering the cleaning times of your other valves so that you don't have all of them cleaning at the same time ?

When you installed the 6600 valve, did you install a top basket/collector ?

While you're at it, get yourself a res-up drip feeder, install it in your brine tank and fill it with res-up, pro-rescare, hydroclear or pur-gard to help clean & prolong the life of your resin.
 
  #12  
Old 09-23-07, 12:05 AM
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I completely spaced the chlorinator.
You probaby want to get a Hach DPD chlorine indicator kit or even use some OTO to check for residual chlorine before and efter the carbon.

The basket allows you to get vigorous with your backwash without loosing media. Mark the resin level on the side of your tank with a current date and then check it annually to confirm that media is at the same levels. If the level drops, then you are losing resin. If the level rises, then your resin is de-crosslinking due to chlorine damage.

Did you measure your wet column height after you first filled the tank, and what is your inlet pressure ?
 
  #13  
Old 09-25-07, 08:54 PM
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6600 setting double backwash

Hey Greg,

I was making the programming changes you suggested today. I noticed that the only place to indicate you wish the valve to double backwash is by setting Level #2 step 5 to an value rather than OFF. There appears to be no particular ON/OFF setting for a double backwash. Not that it particularly matters, but I just wanted to doublecheck.

Otherwise, all is well. I'm anxiously waiting for the Hach test kit.
I'll mark my resin level on the tank with a wax pencil.

Thanks!
 
  #14  
Old 09-26-07, 07:42 PM
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2nd backwash

I should have clarified - 2nd backwash on for 10 minutes

As mentioned, this is a bit of overkill to keep things clean, but once you get your tests done, we can fine tune the setup.
 
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Old 09-29-07, 02:13 PM
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Humpty Dumpty

Hi all (esp. Greg)! My water investigations continue. My Fleck 6600 seems to be working well. I made all the programming changes as suggested except I increased the final rinse from 10 minutes to 15 minutes (I felt compelled to do so for some reason, sorry). I had my first double backwash of the Fleck after seven days since previous regeneration last night (volume wise I was fine). My water was just a bit discolored first thing this morning, but not much.

More importantly, I tested my water. Hardness appears to be around 9 grains before treatment and undetectable hardness post treatment. My iron post treatment appears to be below 1ppm, but my water did discolor, so there is some iron there. Iíll test again in a couple of days and see what I get. My iron after calcite and carbon is greater that 5 ppm. Iíll need to get some deionized water to see how much above 5 ppm. So, it looks as if my water softener is doing lots of work in the iron removal department, maybe all the work.

Now the interesting part, I have a DPD Free Chlorine test kit from Osmotics and Iím not able to detect any chlorine post injection from my first 40 gallon retention tank(this is before any filtration). My 15 gallon Stenner tank is definitely losing volume such Iím almost positive the pump and injection point are working. Perhaps Iíve been too tentative in mixing my chlorine. I started at half a gallon of household bleach (5.7% available chlorine) mixed with 14 gallons of water (itís a 15 gallon tank). When the tank was half empty a couple of weeks ago I increased the concentration to maybe 1 gallon of bleach to 14 gallons of water and I increased the Stenner pump setting from 5 to 7. Final clue, I flushed water out of my two 40 gallon retention tanks today via the valve at the bottom and NO very rusty looking water came out. The flush line does have to go up maybe 3 or 4 feet in grade to get out of the crawlspace, but I would imagine at full pressure I should see some rusty looking water.

Summary, I feel like Humpty Dumpty! But maybe the pieces are starting to come together.
-My water softener is softening fine as demonstrated by my testing.
-The Fleck 6600 is mitigating my dirty water after softener regeneration quite a bit.
-My iron level is greater than 5ppm post chlorine, calcite, and Centaur Carbon.
-My iron levels are somewhere between 0 and 1 ppm post water softener.
-My chlorine levels are undetectable (with the kit I have) coming out of my first 40 gallon retention tank.
-My Stenner pump is set to 5 or 6 right now with a mix of about 1 gallon of household bleach (5.7% available chlorine according to the label) to 14 gallons of water.
-There are only two people in my household so I would have thought 80 gallons of retention tanks and my 47 gallon pressure tank (some of that is air I guess) would be enough retention time.
-Do I need to significantly increase my chlorine level? Any suggestions on mixing?

Whew! Thanks so much for any advice!

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
I should have clarified - 2nd backwash on for 10 minutes

As mentioned, this is a bit of overkill to keep things clean, but once you get your tests done, we can fine tune the setup.
 
  #16  
Old 09-30-07, 10:06 PM
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Humpty Dumpty...

No problem on the extra rinse. It will simply reduce the available capacity by the amount of rinse - no big deal.

Have you always been diluting at those ratios ?
At those levels, the net available chlorine is around 300ppm, presuming that the bleach is "fresh" which is then further diluted through the use of the injection pump. The chlorine demand of your water is high, so I'd suggest that you start with a dilution of 1:5 in your 15 Gallon tank (Add 2 Gallons of bleach to your current blend) and see what the net chlorine residual is after running for at least 24 hours.

We're shooting for a net residual BEFORE the carbon of about 0.5ppm.

Which model stenner pump do you have ?

You can use reverse osmosis purified or distilled water for your dilution ratios in the iron field test.
 
  #17  
Old 10-01-07, 01:30 PM
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Thanks Greg! I have not had the Stenner pump long, so yes, to date, I have been diluting at those ratios. My pump is a Stenner Classic Series 85 Hi Pressure Feed Pump (85MHP17110).
I'll modify my chlorine ratio. I'm looking forward to reporting back.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
No problem on the extra rinse. It will simply reduce the available capacity by the amount of rinse - no big deal.

Have you always been diluting at those ratios ?
At those levels, the net available chlorine is around 300ppm, presuming that the bleach is "fresh" which is then further diluted through the use of the injection pump. The chlorine demand of your water is high, so I'd suggest that you start with a dilution of 1:5 in your 15 Gallon tank (Add 2 Gallons of bleach to your current blend) and see what the net chlorine residual is after running for at least 24 hours.

We're shooting for a net residual BEFORE the carbon of about 0.5ppm.

Which model stenner pump do you have ?

You can use reverse osmosis purified or distilled water for your dilution ratios in the iron field test.
 
  #18  
Old 10-06-07, 02:45 AM
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empty brine tank

Hello everybody (esp. Greg!),

One question and some updates.

I heard early this morning my 6600 was regenerating and I noticed that during stage two (Brine/Slow rinse; programmed for 75 minutes) the brine tank was empty and the filter was still attempting to draw brine. The valve indicated that there were about 35 minutes left in the cycle, if I read the output correctly. In any case, the brine tank has to run dry sooner or later, but I just wanted to check that what I am reporting sounds typical or expected.

Also, I've been working toward the 1/5 chlorine ratio in my Stenner tank as suggested. I added another container of bleach (1.4 gallons) and waited about 36 hours and was getting a reading of about .25 ppm after retention and before filtration. I added another 1.4 gallons and will check the chlorine levels again later today.

I received the corosex I ordered yesterday and am thinking I'll add about 1/4 cubic foot later today to the 1 cubic foot of calcite I already have in place. I'll report what effect that has on my pH.

I should receive my Res-Up with drip feeder in a few days.

Thanks so much for any advice/comments!
 
  #19  
Old 10-06-07, 05:32 AM
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I obviously have not yet solved my dirty water after regeneration problem. This is my water this morning after last night's regeneration. The water ran clear after this much dirty water. It is surprising to me even after the 15 min final rinse I've set my 6600 to execute that I get this much dirty water. I'm not surprised that the water is still running dirty though, because I have been increasing my chlorine levels only in the last couple of days and so for most of the past few days the softener has been doing all my iron mitigation. No question here, but do read the next post. Thanks!

 
  #20  
Old 10-06-07, 11:36 AM
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Latest test results.

-My chlorine post retention pre filtration is around .5 ppm.
I have some chlorine test strips on the way from Hach that should give me a little more confidence in this reading. So yeah! That's finally on track!

-My post retention pre filtration iron level is greater than 5 ppm. Boo! I'll try to get some distilled water today and see if I can test just how high.

-My post calcite and carbon filtration, pre softener iron level is greater than 5 ppm.

-My post everything point of use iron level is undetectable.

I'm beginning to think that chlorine injection and 80+ gallons of retention time is not able to handle the amount of iron I have. Could this be true?

Should I try more chlorine? Should I increase retention capacity or should I begin thinking kdf or MTM/greensand?

As I understand the issue more chlorine wouldn't help anything as I already have .5 ppm chlorine post retention.

Added retention might help, but I took these readings from water that had been sitting in my retention tanks for a couple of hours.

So I'm leaning toward kdf. Am I giving up on tweaking what I have too soon or are you heaving a sigh of relief?

Thanks for any advice!

My two posts below contain an interesting dirty water picture and a question about my 6600 and if it is okay that the brine tank is drained halfway through the brine/slow rinse stage 2.
 
  #21  
Old 10-06-07, 07:06 PM
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Vrine tank empty before end of brine/rinse cycle

The empty brine tank is normal, you'll usually draw down the tank within the first 25 minutes or so, depending on which injector you have. The cycle is that long to allow a slow & progressive movement of brine through the bed, allowing contact time to regenerate the resin and enough rinse volume to clear the bed of brine and byproducts.

Glad to hear the chlorine levels are normializing




Originally Posted by jjamison View Post
Hello everybody (esp. Greg!),

One question and some updates.

I heard early this morning my 6600 was regenerating and I noticed that during stage two (Brine/Slow rinse; programmed for 75 minutes) the brine tank was empty and the filter was still attempting to draw brine. The valve indicated that there were about 35 minutes left in the cycle, if I read the output correctly. In any case, the brine tank has to run dry sooner or later, but I just wanted to check that what I am reporting sounds typical or expected.

Also, I've been working toward the 1/5 chlorine ratio in my Stenner tank as suggested. I added another container of bleach (1.4 gallons) and waited about 36 hours and was getting a reading of about .25 ppm after retention and before filtration. I added another 1.4 gallons and will check the chlorine levels again later today.

I received the corosex I ordered yesterday and am thinking I'll add about 1/4 cubic foot later today to the 1 cubic foot of calcite I already have in place. I'll report what effect that has on my pH.

I should receive my Res-Up with drip feeder in a few days.

Thanks so much for any advice/comments!
 
  #22  
Old 10-06-07, 07:11 PM
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Iron

Let's get the actual iron levels before we get too creative...


Originally Posted by jjamison View Post
-My chlorine post retention pre filtration is around .5 ppm.
I have some chlorine test strips on the way from Hach that should give me a little more confidence in this reading. So yeah! That's finally on track!

-My post retention pre filtration iron level is greater than 5 ppm. Boo! I'll try to get some distilled water today and see if I can test just how high.

-My post calcite and carbon filtration, pre softener iron level is greater than 5 ppm.

-My post everything point of use iron level is undetectable.

I'm beginning to think that chlorine injection and 80+ gallons of retention time is not able to handle the amount of iron I have. Could this be true?

Should I try more chlorine? Should I increase retention capacity or should I begin thinking kdf or MTM/greensand?

As I understand the issue more chlorine wouldn't help anything as I already have .5 ppm chlorine post retention.

Added retention might help, but I took these readings from water that had been sitting in my retention tanks for a couple of hours.

So I'm leaning toward kdf. Am I giving up on tweaking what I have too soon or are you heaving a sigh of relief?

Thanks for any advice!

My two posts below contain an interesting dirty water picture and a question about my 6600 and if it is okay that the brine tank is drained halfway through the brine/slow rinse stage 2.
 
  #23  
Old 10-06-07, 07:53 PM
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Iron

Good deal! I should have some distilled water tomorrow.

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Let's get the actual iron levels before we get too creative...
 
  #24  
Old 10-07-07, 03:30 PM
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Iron data

I told my wife I was going to go to the store to pick up some distilled water and she said she could do it when she went to the grocery store today. She got back from the store and said "hey, your distilled water is in the trunk". A little alarm sounded at that point as I suspected I might have made a mistake. She picked me up six gallons! He, he, I guess I should have mentioned I didn't need much.

Okay, down to business. I tested my iron levels post retention/pre filtration. I tested four times and found these levels to be at 5 ppm, 5 ppm, 8 ppm, and 7 ppm. I also tested my water post calcite/carbon pre water softener. I tested twice. Strangely these iron levels were high at over 10 ppm. My carbon filter backwashed last night or maybe the bypass fitting was shedding some iron since I had just turned it? I can't explain. Fortunately, my iron levels at post filtration point of use continued to be undetectable.

Thanks for any advice!
 
  #25  
Old 10-07-07, 03:50 PM
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iron levels

Backwash both the calcite and centaur systems 4 times each then test your levels again to see if they have changed.
 
  #26  
Old 10-07-07, 04:01 PM
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Iron levels

I'll get right on it!
 
  #27  
Old 10-07-07, 04:15 PM
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iron levels

Something else you might want to do is to observe the flow of discharge water coming out of each tank to see if it is significantly discolored.

There is the possibility that one or both tanks are iron fouled - centaur would be my guess.
 
  #28  
Old 10-07-07, 04:40 PM
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Iron Fouling

I'll will check the discharge water and let you know what I find.
Not that it precludes fouling, but I replaced the calcite, carbon, and resin only about five months ago. I have my corosex on hold just in case I do need to rebed something or everything. I'll go run a manual backwash on the carbon right now and report back later!
 
  #29  
Old 10-07-07, 05:39 PM
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As a reminder my system is first chlorine injection, then 80 gallons retention, then 47 gallon pressure tank with bladder, then 10x47 calcite 1 cu foot, then 10x47 Centaur carbon 1 cu foot, then 10x47 softener with about 1.5 cu foot.

I first ran a manual backwash of my Centaur unit. I moved the dial straight to backwash. Note that it backwashed automatically last night. Below you can see that at about one minute into the backwash cycle the water is pretty nasty. My wife washed two loads of clothes I took a shower and several toilet flushes plus misc use had taken place during the day today since that automatic backwash last night. You can see the water is looking much clearer at the end of the backwash cycle a few minutes later. Next I ran a manual backwash of my calcite unit. You can see that it was discharging some fairly clean water from the start. I hope this is helpful information. Cheers! ps My wife is convinced I am a complete nut when she saw me taking pictures of our water!



Originally Posted by jjamison View Post
I'll will check the discharge water and let you know what I find.
Not that it precludes fouling, but I replaced the calcite, carbon, and resin only about five months ago. I have my corosex on hold just in case I do need to rebed something or everything. I'll go run a manual backwash on the carbon right now and report back later!
 
  #30  
Old 10-07-07, 07:41 PM
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Iron

Great photos - very helpful

What were the test results after the 4 complete backwashes, and did the backwash discharges get progressively clearer ?

Take a glass of your water pre softener, and let it stand overnight. Please report on the amount of iron oxide that precipitates out. Test the water in the glass at that point for iron & report the data please
 
  #31  
Old 10-07-07, 08:04 PM
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Hey Greg,
I have not completed the 2x4=8 backwashes.
I have set the filters to take turns every night backwashing and I can manually backwash when I get home from work the unit that did not backwash the night before. So in 4 days I could have the 8 backwashes done. Would this be acceptable or should I just move the valves to the backwash portion of the full cycle and try to get all the backwashes done at the same time in a couple of hours? I just didn't know for sure which.

Regarding the glass of overnight water, when you say pre softener, should that be post retention pre calcite and carbon? That's as early in my series that I can get. Or are you wanting post everything but the softener? That's what I'll assume you mean, right before the softener. Let me know if you mean otherwise.

Thanks for sticking with me! Here is the happy couple that is thankful for your advice!


Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Great photos - very helpful

What were the test results after the 4 complete backwashes, and did the backwash discharges get progressively clearer ?

Take a glass of your water pre softener, and let it stand overnight. Please report on the amount of iron oxide that precipitates out. Test the water in the glass at that point for iron & report the data please
 
  #32  
Old 10-07-07, 09:07 PM
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Backwashes

Lets get them all done in one session, so that we can maximize our results.

Just cycle each manually to the beginning of the backwash cycle and let it run, then stop it manually at the end of the backwash.

Alternatively, If your pump can handle it, you could also enter the backwash and unplug power from the 5600 valve & let it fly for 20 minutes (4 x 5 minute backwash). - BTW, what size DLFC do you have on each valve ?

Time consuming & a hassle, but it will help us get a grip on the problem.

You deduced correctly on the glass of water.

Let's hope we can keep that couple happy & iron-free !
 
  #33  
Old 10-08-07, 07:43 PM
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First, the water I collected post calcite/Centaur (pre softener) last night, that if youíll remember was running over 10ppm, sat overnight and today ended up looking very clear with little globs of red goo at the bottom. My wife said it looks as if it has granules of brown sugar in the bottom that were orange, maybe a teaspoon (sorry no pic).

Regarding, my iron testing today; woohoo, I think we may be getting somewhere! I ran 20 minutes of backwash on each the calcite unit and the Centaur unit.

I tested for iron four times post retention/pre filtration and got 6ppm, 6ppm, 4ppm, and 5ppm.

I then tested for iron post calcite/Centaur filtration (pre softener) and got 5ppm and 5ppm. BUT, I thought maybe Iím not really conducting an accurate post backwash test until the units are cleared of the backwash water. So I tested the water AGAIN post calcite/Centaur filtration (pre softener) after letting the water run for five minutes through the calcite and Centaur units and the water was CLEAR. I tested it twice and found <1ppm, and 0ppm.

Interesting!

Oh yes, my DLFCs are 5gpm on the calcite and Centaur unit. Or at least that is what is marked on the units. The 6600 is unmarked.

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Lets get them all done in one session, so that we can maximize our results.

Just cycle each manually to the beginning of the backwash cycle and let it run, then stop it manually at the end of the backwash.

Alternatively, If your pump can handle it, you could also enter the backwash and unplug power from the 5600 valve & let it fly for 20 minutes (4 x 5 minute backwash). - BTW, what size DLFC do you have on each valve ?

Time consuming & a hassle, but it will help us get a grip on the problem.

You deduced correctly on the glass of water.

Let's hope we can keep that couple happy & iron-free !
 
  #34  
Old 10-08-07, 08:59 PM
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Backwashes & Chlorine

Remove the DLFC from the calcite filter and set it to backwash every 2nd day.

Are your chlorine levels still stable at around 0.5 ppm residual ?

Did you get your drip feeder and resin cleaner yet ?
 
  #35  
Old 10-08-07, 09:27 PM
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Hey you remembered! Yeah, I got the resin cleaner and drip feeder today. Looks pretty cool. I'll install it tomorrow.

I'll remove the DLFC from the calcite filter and set it to backwash every 2nd day.

I have a riser basket on my Centaur tank so I could remove the DLFC, I guess, should I? And what would be your recommendation on backwash frequency for the Centaur unit?

So are you thinking that:

With stable chlorine levels (I'll test those again tomorrow).
The Calcite regenerating every other day with no DLFC.
The 6600 double backwashing the softener.
And with a drip feed of resin cleaner.

that Humpty Dumpty might be back together?

Finally, I used Hach 5-in-1 strip on my water at point of use and found the Total Alkalinity might be around 120 ppm CaCO3. The strips are difficult to read. Or maybe it's my color vision. I'm not sure how this is different from hardness that reads near 0 CaCO3, but I thought I'd let you know. The strip confirms my pH is around 6.8. So my final question is, would you go ahead and add some Corosex to the calcite?

And finally, finally, what am I going to do in the evenings if we solve my water problems!?


Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Remove the DLFC from the calcite filter and set it to backwash every 2nd day.

Are your chlorine levels still stable at around 0.5 ppm residual ?

Did you get your drip feeder and resin cleaner yet ?
 
  #36  
Old 10-08-07, 10:47 PM
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Getting closer

Removing the DLFC on the Centaur is not a problem, but let's not do it quite just yet. - Incremental changes...

Run for 5 days on the new configuration before you add the corosex. Keep track of water color, clarity during that period & lets see if we're consistently good.

Once you add the corosex, we'll run for 5 more days and test pH each day to observe consistency.

We're edging closer to perfection here.
 
  #37  
Old 10-09-07, 06:27 AM
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science

Spoken like a true scientist! I'll report back in 5 days, thanks again! What schedule should I have the Centaur on?

Originally Posted by greg-cws View Post
Removing the DLFC on the Centaur is not a problem, but let's not do it quite just yet. - Incremental changes...

Run for 5 days on the new configuration before you add the corosex. Keep track of water color, clarity during that period & lets see if we're consistently good.

Once you add the corosex, we'll run for 5 more days and test pH each day to observe consistency.

We're edging closer to perfection here.
 
  #38  
Old 10-09-07, 07:39 AM
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Centaur

Lets keep the Centaur on the same schedule for now.
 
  #39  
Old 10-09-07, 05:51 PM
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I removed the DLFC button and button retainer from the calcite unit. Let me know if I should have left the button retainer in place.

I installed the drip feed for the resin cleaner. The drip feeder is from Clack and seems to be a good simple low tech solution. Let me know if anyone would like to see a picture.

I will leave the Centaur on an every 6th day schedule.

Thanks!
 
  #40  
Old 10-09-07, 09:27 PM
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Good job, keep us posted.
 
 

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