Reionator


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Old 03-07-08, 11:50 PM
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Reionator

Hello everyone.

I had a meeting with a very nice guy today. He is an Alpine Watertech franchiser in ST. George, UT. His product seems a blended resin system. It is called the "reionator". I have been searching for information on this, but not much available. We played with the "conditioner" at a showroom. Nice Clack metered control valve, and fiberglass tank. He did not inflate things. He said the cation takes care of the regular softening and the anion takes out chlorine and heavy metals and some other junk. For $1800 for a 4800, to include installation. 5 year warranty on the controller by the manufacturer, but he adds a lifetime warranty by his franchise. The tank and resin is lifetime warranty by the Watertech company. There are several people in our community who used this guy and very happy with the product. He came highly recommended and I found him genuine as well. He highly recommends potassium instead of sodium, but his system is OK with both.
We have hard, community well water. It is chlorinated, but by all residents considered very good water, but very hard. Just tested it today at 20 grains. Supposedly, it gets harder in drought season, up to 40 grains. No iron of any kind.
Stats:
3 people now, but soon to be 2. No iron. Hardness between 20 (tested) and 40 occasional (anecdotal). Average water users.
I would rather build an install my own system and save a bunch. Is the anion/cation system worthwhile? What is the blending ratio and what kind of resin? They use a propriatery name and Google turns up nothing on it. Any advise would be appreciated.
BTW, I visited the Hague today as well. Gee, what a pushy, upselling place. I have no moon dust, so I don't need a moon dust filter. That thing baby sits, brings you a beer and does great favors. According to the sales guy. For nearly 4K.
Thanks,
Z
 
  #2  
Old 03-08-08, 01:18 PM
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Exclamation Mixed bed systems - Caveat Emptor

Excellent questions !

NaCL/KCl Mixed bed systems have been around for a long time and are often touted as doing some amazing things. As with anything, they have to be used properly and sensibly.

My company manufactures and sells mixed bed systems, so these comments are not intended to malign the other company at all - the facts below hold true for any mixed bed system from ANY manufacturer:-

1. Anion resin is less dense than cation resin, so it will classify to the top of the column, causing it to be the very first media to be contacted by raw city water - This is BAD if you don't have any kind of pre-treatment device, like a softener and dechlorinator.

2. Anion resin is NOT designed to remove chlorine. In fact anion resin is damaged by chlorine . Most anion resin manufacturers recommend that the influent chlorine level NEVER EXCEED 0.05ppm. (City water in your area has chlorine levels that are in the 0.5ppm to 1.5ppm range)If you don't protect that anion resin with a de-chlorinater (GAC, KDF etc...) the anion resin will be damaged to such a point that it will eventually de-crosslink and liberate amines into your water, which will cause a fishy smell and unpleasant taste. Eventually, the anion resin will be damaged to such a degree that it is either backwashed out of the tank through the top distributor screen or stays in the tank as fines that could cause channeling.

3. Anion resins will reliably exchange the following contaminants in potable water (with chloride ions from the salt regenerant) - nitrates, sulfates, silicates and certain organics like tanins and lignins. Anion resin does nothing to heavy metals in this application at all. Any high k-factor cation resin will remove heavy metals, like hydrolyte 525-3 or equivalent.

4. Mixing Anion and Cation resins in the same tank can have deliterious effects if your influent water hardness is above 5 gpg. Most water in the St. George area is in the 18 - 30 gpg range and has low-level sulfates, so the mixed bed system is going to precipitate calcium sulfate, which can coat the internals if your control valve, clog injectors, and generally make life difficult for you if the water isn't pre-softened.



Clarifying articles/info:-http://www.watertechonline.com/artic...ndexID=6630656

http://purolite.com/Library/Products...ces/rid_52.pdf

http://www.rohmhaas.com/assets/attac...lite_pwa12.pdf

http://www.watertechonline.com/artic...ndexID=6636247


If you really have your heart set on a mixed bed system, you'll need to add a dechlorinator and a softener BEFORE the mixed bed system to protect it.


Good luck on your quest for better water.




Originally Posted by hardashell View Post
Hello everyone.

I had a meeting with a very nice guy today. He is an Alpine Watertech franchiser in ST. George, UT. His product seems a blended resin system. It is called the "reionator". I have been searching for information on this, but not much available. We played with the "conditioner" at a showroom. Nice Clack metered control valve, and fiberglass tank. He did not inflate things. He said the cation takes care of the regular softening and the anion takes out chlorine and heavy metals and some other junk. For $1800 for a 4800, to include installation. 5 year warranty on the controller by the manufacturer, but he adds a lifetime warranty by his franchise. The tank and resin is lifetime warranty by the Watertech company. There are several people in our community who used this guy and very happy with the product. He came highly recommended and I found him genuine as well. He highly recommends potassium instead of sodium, but his system is OK with both.
We have hard, community well water. It is chlorinated, but by all residents considered very good water, but very hard. Just tested it today at 20 grains. Supposedly, it gets harder in drought season, up to 40 grains. No iron of any kind.
Stats:
3 people now, but soon to be 2. No iron. Hardness between 20 (tested) and 40 occasional (anecdotal). Average water users.
I would rather build an install my own system and save a bunch. Is the anion/cation system worthwhile? What is the blending ratio and what kind of resin? They use a propriatery name and Google turns up nothing on it. Any advise would be appreciated.
BTW, I visited the Hague today as well. Gee, what a pushy, upselling place. I have no moon dust, so I don't need a moon dust filter. That thing baby sits, brings you a beer and does great favors. According to the sales guy. For nearly 4K.
Thanks,
Z
 
  #3  
Old 03-09-08, 12:23 PM
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Hi Greg,

Thanks for the response. I will have a better, more comprehensive test done on my water and will provide the results. We are not paranoid about every little thing in the water that would not cause harm. Just have to have soft water for the obvious reasons and good tasting water without harmful contaminants. Hence, we would like to buy the right system without going overboard financially or filtering out stuff that does not even exist on earth.
Your points are well taken. I rather have a simple, cost effective system that does what we need it to do. I am not sure if I have explained it correctly, but the system in question is called a "conditioner" that is claimed to be a softener and more. The "more" part and the fact that it is mixed resin what concerns me. If we need an additional softener and pre-filters I don't think it is the system for us. My heart is not set on it, but the consensus around here that the system works well for all who uses it and the franchiser guy is a class act. I am not sure it worth an extra 1K or so. I would prefer DIY and save some money. Unfortunately, the mixed resin seems more complicated than just pouring it into the tank. I went to the resin manufacturers' website and seems like there are particular ratios and complexities I am not sure I want to or should deal with.

We are not in St. George proper, but in a part of Ivins that is a large community well and the chlorination is supposedly very low. The comprehensive test will determine that.

We are planning an under sink RO for drinking and the fridge. Hopefully we will not need anything more.


Thank you again,

Z
 
  #4  
Old 03-11-08, 12:10 PM
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Latest Water Test

Hardness: 20
Turbidity: 2 NTU
Radium-228: 1 pCi/l
Barium: 43 ppb
Chromium: 2 ppb
Copper: 122 ppb
Lead: 4 ppb
Fluoride: 300 ppb
Mercury: ND
Nitrate: ND-700 ppb
Selenium: 2 ppb
Sodium: 39 ppm
Sulfate: 148-161 ppm
TDS: 519 ppm

Benzo(a)pyrene: 164 ppt
TTHM: 1-24 ppb
Haloacetic Acid: ND-14

The only contaminant even coming close to the allowable level is: Benzo(a)pyrene: 164 ppt Allowable 200 ppt

Community well water.

So, now that we have all the data, what do I really need? Is the mixed bed (anion/cation) "conditioner" better than a quality water softener for less than half of cost?
Your help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Z
 
  #5  
Old 03-11-08, 08:08 PM
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Water test results

Z,

Thanks for sharing the test data. There isn't a thing on your list of test data (apaart from the sulfate) that the anion resin would really improve for you, so I'd suggest a good quality, electronically controlled on-demand water softener with at least 10% cross-linked resin.

If you'd like to address the organo-synthetics on your test results, follow the softener with a self-backwashing 2ft3 activated carbon filter.

Your influent TDS is on the high-end, so the soft water won't tast particularly good. You might want to install an NSF-certified (preferably US-made) R/O for your drinking water.

There are some great all-in-one systems that will work perfectly for you, but this forum prohibits me from recommending any specific products.
 
  #6  
Old 03-12-08, 06:18 PM
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Greg,

Thanks again for the info. It makes perfect sense. I would like to hear your RO suggestion. Please PM me and let me know if I could contact you.

What does 10% cross-linked resin mean?
Would a carbon filter cause significant pressure drop in the home?
Would you recommend a sediment pre-filter as well?

This is more complex than I ever thought it would be.
Thanks,

Z
 
  #7  
Old 03-13-08, 08:55 AM
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Resin cross-linkage & GAC filters

Z,

10% cross-linked refers to the physical integrity of the resin bead. In this case, 10% of the material is a vinyl cross-linker that hold the polymers together to maintain structural integrity of the resin. This cross-linkage level will ensure that you get a long service life from your resin without a significant loss in functional capacity. (Lower cross-linkage resins will break down faster through attrition).

A well designed whole-house, self-backwashing filter will provide a negligible pressure drop. - Nothing to be concerned about there.

I wouldn't hassle with an additional sediment prefilter for your particular water source.
 
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Old 04-27-09, 10:04 AM
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Resin blend in Reionator

I noticed some incorrect information in the previous posts. The Reionator is actually WQA certified (both the 44 AND 42), which means it has been extensively tested for chlorine removal as well as softening efficiency. Therefore, you would not need a dechlorinator. Those resins have a lifetime manufacturer's warranty; suggesting that the mixed bed system is going to precipitate calcium sulfate, and generally make life difficult for you if the water isn't pre-softened is completely inaccurate.
 
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Old 04-27-09, 05:25 PM
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Thank you for your clarification on the Reionator. Is that made by WaterTech?

I was looking for the listings on nsf.org
NSF Certified Products

Maybe you can help me out.

Thanks
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
  #10  
Old 04-28-09, 08:26 AM
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Anion resin as a dechlorinator

Originally Posted by waterexpert View Post
I noticed some incorrect information in the previous posts. The Reionator is actually WQA certified (both the 44 AND 42), which means it has been extensively tested for chlorine removal as well as softening efficiency. Therefore, you would not need a dechlorinator. Those resins have a lifetime manufacturer's warranty; suggesting that the mixed bed system is going to precipitate calcium sulfate, and generally make life difficult for you if the water isn't pre-softened is completely inaccurate.
Waterexpert, who manufactures the anion resin that system?

What does the manufacturer list as the MAXIMUM allowable free chlorine level that the resin can be exposed to?

What is the mechanism by which the anion resin "removes" chlorine?


Here are the NSF listings for the Reionatior as pertaining to NSF-42 (Chlorine aesthetic effects:-
Brand Name Model Number Flow Rate (GPM) Capacity (Gallons) Reduction Claims Replacement Component
Product Type: Point-of-Entry
Reionator RC32-TM 162 8.8 810 Aesthetic Chlorine N/A
Reionator RC40-TM 143 11.0 1,000 Aesthetic Chlorine N/A
Reionator RC48-TM 144 11.0 1,180 Aesthetic Chlorine N/A
Reionator RC64-TM 163 15.8 1,580 Aesthetic Chlorine N/A
Reionator RC80-TM 146 17.4 1,960 Aesthetic Chlorine N/A

What do you do to your system after 1,960 gallons of use ?
 
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Old 04-28-09, 08:29 AM
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Reionator by Water Tech Industries

Yes, it is. See
http://www.wqa.org/goldseal/detail.c...ompanyID=92780
 
  #12  
Old 05-19-09, 09:17 AM
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Anion resins for dechlorination

As stated previously, there are no anion resins designed for dechlorination. And there are no butter knives designed to be used as screwdrivers either.

The primary mechanism of 'dechlorination' is the destruction reaction between the chlorine and the media. There is no regenerable chemistry explanation for capturing and releasing chlorine - especially since anion resin is regenerated with chloride from the salt brine.

You can also observe some chlorine reduction through cation softening resin. The same mechanism as the media is degraded and slowly destroyed.

My concern with using anion resins in this way is the possibility of creating chlorinated synthetic organic byproducts with potential toxicity. I'd question whether the product has been performance-tested to rule this out.

If the mfg. replaces the resin at NC, I guess that's a good thing since the resin is guaranteed to be destroyed. Who determines when and how that happens?
 
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Old 05-19-09, 11:54 AM
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I've sold and serviced the Reionator. It does work on chlorine reduction. As Aquaguy stated, is it the cation or the anion resin that reduces the chlorine? I feel both. It has good selling points, but thing I found out the hard way, it sometimes makes the water smell fishy. And I could never figure out why.
 
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Old 05-20-09, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by biermech View Post
I've sold and serviced the Reionator. It does work on chlorine reduction. As Aquaguy stated, is it the cation or the anion resin that reduces the chlorine? I feel both. It has good selling points, but thing I found out the hard way, it sometimes makes the water smell fishy. And I could never figure out why.

The fishy smell is due to release of amine groups from the anion resin as it is destroyed by chlorine oxidation.

Chlorine will also destroy the vinyl on regular cation resin decrosslinking it and causing it to retain excessive amounts of water, swell, fracture, and eventually break apart.

Chlorine is one of the most prolific resin killers that can be found in city water.
 
 

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