Are all K-60s Softeners?


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Old 07-06-08, 06:45 AM
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Are all K-60s Softeners?

Hello-

We bought our house about a year ago and it came with a well and a dizzying array of water treatment equipment. It has a well pump, a softener, a pressure tank, a chlorine injection system, and a kinetico product of some kind (oh and an RO system under the kitchen sink).

The Kinetico is a twin tank and is marked "K60" as the model on the local dealer's sticker. I can NOT [edit] read the serial number. It has a single discharge line and no other lines connected to it (other than the water). Lately (after a ton of research and two different techs coming to the house) I've been assuming that this is a self regenerating carbon filter. Is that possible?

I'm not able to find much info on the web about kinetico systems, which is quite frustrating. They seem to be quite keen on working only through local dealers. Unfortunately, the local dealer has already come out and their suggestion was to replace all of the equipment with brand new stuff for $6000
 

Last edited by DaveCG; 07-06-08 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 07-06-08, 08:11 AM
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What type of softener do you have? Why is there a need for chlorination? Do you have a sulfur problem? Where are you located?

The list of equipment that you mentioned, can yhou give the exact order that it is arranged from the pressure tank on? The K-60 could be a carbon filter or another type.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-06-08, 08:22 AM
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Pump -> Sand Filter -> Accumulator -> softener -> Chlorine injection -> Stilling tank? -> Kinetico

I'm in South Florida. The water has lots of sulfur and is very hard. The softener appears to be a Fleck. I'm not sure which model it is its marked with serial number (no model number) 5285254 - I can't find any other nameplates

Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
What type of softener do you have? Why is there a need for chlorination? Do you have a sulfur problem? Where are you located?

The list of equipment that you mentioned, can yhou give the exact order that it is arranged from the pressure tank on? The K-60 could be a carbon filter or another type.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-06-08, 02:31 PM
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Thank you, that helped a lot. I am interested a little more in the sand filter and "accummulator" I suppose the filter is a backwashing type with a timer valve, right? And could you describe the accummlator?

The Kinetico is a twin tank carbon filter and eventually may need to be rebedded. That is why I wondered why they recommended replacement. You probably have no idea how old it is, right? you need to ger granual activated carbon (GAC). Each tank takes 0.7 cuft.

Are you in the Naples area? It is nice down there.

There should be little maintenance except flushing the retention (silting) tank periodically.

Let me know if you have other questions,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-06-08, 04:53 PM
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What I called a "sand filter" is just a paper type filter. It is rather small (the size of a large aerosol can) and has no timer or anything.

What i called an accumulator i think is more commonly called the pressure tank. Accumulator is a term from hydraulic systems for a similar functioning tank.

I'm in West Palm and it is nice but the water system is a huge pain. The house was built in 2000, so I'm assuming that the equipment is about 8 years old.

And I think they recommended replacing it because they thought I had more money than sense (and that they might take advantage of my wife - I wasn't home at the time)
 
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Old 07-06-08, 07:14 PM
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Thanks Dave,

Yes, the accummulator tank is an empty tank (no bladder) that is used to allow chemcials and water enough contact time to perform its function, usually about 20 minutes. The carbon filter is to remove excess chemicals and gather and expell precipitants that don't accummulate in the tank.

I prefer hydrogen peroxide (7%) over chlorine (5.25%).

The sand filter is what is commonly called a replaceable cartridge sediemnt filter usually rated in microns.

You may be able to get the system back up and running at a minimum cost.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-12-08, 12:33 PM
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Thanks for all of the help Andy.

I ordered 1.5 cubic feet of GAC and a new Fleck 5600 softener with fine mesh resin.

The fleck came with some gravel, about 1 gallon or so. Is that for the bottom of the resin tank or the bottom of the brine tank?

Also is there a procedure for flushing the new carbon once it has been installed in the kinetico?

-David
 
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Old 07-12-08, 05:35 PM
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The gravel should go in the bottom of the softener. What is the diameter of your softener? Under ten inches, i would think you need gravel, but it won't hurt.

The carbon will have a lot of air attached to the media and will take a few days to become totally saturated. Until then, you will see some cloudiness in the water.

Why did you get fine mesh resin? Was that recommended? Is the softener a timer or demand unit?

Well, good job and let me know if I can help.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-31-08, 12:23 PM
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Peroxide vs chlorine

To Andy C.
You sound like a pro at water treatment. I am a chemist who knows a lot about water, but much less about available commercial water treatment equipment. I noticed you like peroxide over chlorine for oxidation treatment. That is almost unheard of among water treatment people. I have used hydrogen peroxide for years with wonderful results, but in a homemade peroxide pump system. I use 30% peroxide from swimming pool chemical suppliers and have difficulty finding pumps that can take that strength. What kind of hardware do you recommend?


Jimchrom
 
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Old 07-31-08, 04:13 PM
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Chlorine is used in municipal applications because it is shipped as a gas. Peroxide in larger systems would be cost prohibitive.

But for residential and even small systems, the cost factor is more manageable.

I ma not sure why you are using 30% solution. I noramlly use a 7% solution unless sulfur is over 50ppm! You should not use a diaphram pump. Yu can dilute it with DI water or even RO water to around 7% - 10%.

ther factors are nvolved in determining concentration levels such as retention time.

Use a peristaltic pump; I prefer Stenner pumps as they are reliable (not cheap) and easy to repair. Due to its method, you'll never need to prime it if you get air in the line and is self-priming on start up.

The hose will need to be replaced occasionally but there are no reeds to clog/crust up as with diaphram pumps.

Moreover, peroxide has a very high oxidation rate and much few problems with by-production than bleach.

What do you use H202 for?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 08-13-08, 09:22 AM
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Peroxide vs chlorine

I use peroxide because I am familiar with the reactions of chlorine and peroxide and peroxide produces much "cleaner" reaction products without the smell or byproducts of chlorine. Chlorine can produce a whole range of chlorinated organic compounds that are generally more toxic and/or carcinogenic than the products of peroxide oxidation. Most of these can be removed by charcoal filtration, but why produce them in the first place? I much prefer peroxide aesthetically because the water tastes and smells better, since the peroxide aerates the water. I use 30% peroxide because that is the only concentration (above the 3% in drugstores) that I find commercially available. I am also familiar with its use in the chemical lab for oxidative degradation and definitely do not recommend it for use by the average homeowner. It is far to reactive and dangerous for general use by the average homeowner.

Where do you get your 7% peroxide solutions?

I have been considering the Stenner pumps, but I would like to know the material that their pump tubes is made out of. If it is polyvinylchloride (PVC) as I suspect it is, then it will contain a plasticizer (diethylhexylphthalate) that is a known hormone disrupter and has been banned in most other developed countries. Would you happen to know the material of construction of their pump tubes?
 
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Old 08-13-08, 04:57 PM
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My question about "why" is what water quality issue are you trying to correct?

Originally Posted by jimchrom View Post
I use peroxide because I am familiar with the reactions of chlorine and peroxide and peroxide produces much "cleaner" reaction products without the smell or byproducts of chlorine.
I agree that H202 is better.

Originally Posted by jimchrom View Post
I use 30% peroxide because that is the only concentration (above the 3% in drugstores) that I find commercially available. I am also familiar with its use in the chemical lab for oxidative degradation and definitely do not recommend it for use by the average homeowner. It is far to reactive and dangerous for general use by the average homeowner.
Where do you get your 7% peroxide solutions?
I'll check on the supplier and try to get that to you. You can dilute the 35%, 5:1

Originally Posted by jimchrom View Post
I have been considering the Stenner pumps, but I would like to know the material that their pump tubes is made out of. If it is polyvinylchloride (PVC) as I suspect it is, then it will contain a plasticizer (diethylhexylphthalate) that is a known hormone disrupter and has been banned in most other developed countries. Would you happen to know the material of construction of their pump tubes?
I am not sure what the tube is made of but not PVC. It is made for chemical feeds.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 08-14-08, 01:43 PM
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Peroxide vs chlorine

I originally started adding hydrogen peroxide after about 9 years with my well system for 2 reasons:
1. To convert 15 ppm iron in my water to the red oxide so it could be filtered out. I had started in a new house with an aeration-birm filter arrangement but that proved inadequate for my well system and iron level.
2. To kill the iron and sulfur bacteria that had taken over my well water system.
An added bonus, although not necessary according to the testing I had done, was that I knew any bacteria present in the raw well water would not survive. I tried to maintain a peroxide level of a few ppm, which I think is about what European water treatment systems target.
 
 

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