Opinions on GE Logix valve


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Old 10-07-08, 01:13 PM
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Opinions on GE Logix valve

I've been researching and talking to water companies in the area and the one I want to use only installs softeners w/ GE Logix valves. I believe it is the "760" - sound right?

I know this is essentially an Autotrol valve, which tend to have a good rep, but I wanted to get some feedback from you guys before I actually pulled the trigger on something.
I think the softener also comes w/ a turbulator - is this for better performance during regeneration?



For the record, city w/ hardness is around 10 gpg - almost all calcium
No real issues w/ iron, ph, chlorine, etc
Flow rate is 8-9 gpm
Eventually will be 4 people in the house
I plan on going w/ the 48k grain softener and an RO for kitchen


thanks for any feedback
 

Last edited by DustBow; 10-07-08 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 10-07-08, 01:40 PM
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Autotrol makes a good valve. The only problem I see is with the computor. IMO you should not mix water, salt and electronics. But that is MY opinion. The simplest valve that is very dependable is the Fleck 5600.

As far as the turbulator, it does help keep the resin clean on well water. With city water, it is not needed.

As far as the size (48,000 gr), that is OK. You can save a little with a 32,000 gr unit. It should regen every 6 days vs every 10 for the bigger unit. On well water with iron, this would make a difference.

You don't say if you are on city water or well.
 
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Old 10-07-08, 02:17 PM
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thanks for the input
city water - original post edited
 
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Old 10-07-08, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DustBow View Post
I've been researching and talking to water companies in the area and the one I want to use only installs softeners w/ GE Logix valves. I believe it is the "760" - sound right? .... I know this is essentially an Autotrol valve, which tend to have a good rep, but I wanted to get some feedback from you guys ...
I don't think the Autotrol valves are in the same quality range as Clack, or Fleck. As an example, the Logix is a timer, not a control valve but, you can only select three salt dose settings; low, average and high (efficiency). IOW, you can't set the number of lbs, the computer selects them for you.

Originally Posted by DustBow View Post
I think the softener also comes w/ a turbulator - is this for better performance during regeneration?
Only if you have high iron; 2.5+ ppm. The downside with using one is you can not use a gravel underbed (no gravel increases the pressure loss across the softener) and, a Turbulator causes more friction wear on the resin beads.

Originally Posted by DustBow View Post
For the record, city w/ hardness is around 10 gpg - almost all calcium
No real issues w/ iron, ph, chlorine, etc
Flow rate is 8-9 gpm
Eventually will be 4 people in the house
I plan on going w/ the 48k grain softener and an RO for kitchen.
What flow rate is 8-9 gpm?

How many permanent residents in the house now, and when will the other two get there?

A 48K is actually a 1.5 ft3 softener. What salt efficiency is he telling you'll get?

How many bathrooms and any large tubs or multiple person showers or body sprays or over sized shower heads? Any shower heads with the flow restricter drilled out or removed?

The optimal regeneration schedule is once every 7-9 days; I like round'n curvy so I program for day 8, and it's in the middle.
 
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Old 10-07-08, 07:45 PM
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8-9 gallons per minute at master bath

right now, it's my wife and I and our 3 year old daughter, we'll have 1 more child in the next couple years and plan on being in the house for a long time

2.5 baths right now, no special showers, got a large soaking tub in the master, eventually will finish the basement and put in a half bath

I didn't really get any specific salt eff. numbers

I wonder if I can opt out of the turbulator and save some cash...sounds like you aren't crazy about the GE control though...
 
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Old 10-08-08, 10:12 AM
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The flow at a tub is a snapshot of the condition of your plumbing and your water pressure only. It is only part of your peak demand flow rate of the house. The constant SFR of the softener has to be greater than the peak demand or the softener can not remove all the hardness etc. that it is supposed to. The constant SFR gpm of a "30K" is 9 gpm.

You would program a softener for th e3 people there now and change it for any additional people later, but you can't change the SFR.

You shouldn't buy from anyone that can't or won't explain salt efficiency or the SFR you need.

No I'm not a fan of the GE owned Autotrol valves. GE softeners are made by Ecowater and are interchangeable with the Kenmore, Whirlpool and North Star brands.

A Turbulator is inexpensive (
 
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Old 10-08-08, 10:33 AM
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The SFR he is talking is nothing more than a sales pitch. I have 16+ years and a service tech and have never seen hard water bleed through like he talks about.

As far as the Autotrol vavle, it is not made by GE. Ecowater makes the Whirlpool, Sears and Kenmore valve. GE recently bought Osmonics which made the Autotrol valve.

You may be able to find them cheaper on line, but when it comes to warranty, then what do you do. Call some plumbers and ask if they work on softeners. Most of them will say NO.
 
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Old 10-08-08, 12:39 PM
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So what size do you guys think I need?
What would you propose to install?
 
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Old 10-08-08, 02:30 PM
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I perfer the Fleck 5600 metered system. The Autotrol is a good valve as well. As I stated, I just don't prefer the electronic units.

The only difference between the 1cf and 1.5cf is the run between regens. Both will work fine for your needs.
 
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Old 10-08-08, 02:43 PM
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More resin = less regens
But more resin also means it takes more salt during each regen, right?
So would the salt usage be the same either way?
If they all can handle the SFR of my home, then the 32k , 40k & 48k all would work and it's all just personal preference?

Does everyone here believe you should regen every week or so even if actual usage doesn't demand? Weekly over-ride I guess is the term.
Thanks
 
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Old 10-08-08, 03:05 PM
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Lets do the math 1cf =20,000cap @ 8lb salt (effience setting)
1.5cf=30,000cap @12lb salt (effience setting)

20,000cap/10 hardness=2000 gallons between run
75 gal per day usage *3 people=225 average daily usage
2000/225=8.88 days between regen

30,000cap/10 hardness=3000gal/75/3=13.33

30 days per month /8.88 days between regen=3.37 regens per month*8lb salt per regen=26.96 salt used per month

30 days per month /13.33 days between regen=2.25 regens per month*12lb salt per regen= 27 salt used per month. You can calulate for 4 people

So by going with the bigger unit you save 1 regen per month which equals about 75 gallon savings. Water is cheap.

The real savings will be the cost diff from a 1cf vs 1.5 cf unit.

With on iron in the water a weekly regen is not needed.
 
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Old 10-08-08, 09:29 PM
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All softeners have two SFR rates; maximum and constant and it is a function of the cuft volume of resin in the tank. For those nonbelievers, there are 5 plumbing codes in the US and 4 of them have a SFR code. I do not size to the codes because they use the fixture count method to establish the peak demand gpm of the building as if you turned on all fixtures at once; which no one ever does.

Autotrol was bought by Osmonics about 10-15 years ago and GE bought Osmonics about 8 years ago, and thereby Autotrol is owned by GE; as I said. I did not say Autotrol valves were made by GE.

Anything sold online has the same factory warranty as the same thing sold by a local dealer. You simply call the online dealer as you would the local dealer; not a plumber. And you can replace the part on your schedule instead of waiting around for a service call that the guy may show up 2-3 hrs late or call to reschedule for 2 days later. I have 21+ yrs in this business and over 6 years selling online.

Depending on the K of capacity needed, the salt dose is another difference between a 1.0 and 1.5 cuft softener, you could use less salt in the larger softener yet have the same regeneration schedule/number of gallons between regenerations.

That's because, as biermech shows, the salt dose and the K of capacity is dictated by the volume of resin and lbs of salt used.

Although his figures do not give you very good salt efficiency and are wrong for regular mesh resins. I.E. in a 1.0 cuft 6 lbs gives you 20k and 12 lbs in a 1.5 cuft gives you 33.6K. That's with a 50% freeboard. His efficiency; 20,000/8 = 2500 grains/lb. and 30000/12= 2500. To use his 5600 mechanical metered control, you need to deduct one day's worth of capacity for the reserve.

With a Clack WS-1, you don't do that because it has a variable reserve the computer establishes from actual daily water usage over the last 3 weeks. So I would set your K of capacity at 15 and that would require 4.5 lbs of salt every 1500 gals or every 8 days whichever comes first. The 8 days is the calendar override of the metering and is good for your resin; it makes it last longer.

I also select the length of time each position of a regeneration runs so you get increased water efficiency when compared to the mechanical metered Fleck 5600, because you can't change its settings.

I'd size your softener for a minimum salt efficiency of 3333 grains/lb. That's 833 grains/lb more efficient than the figures above. You can PM me if you want to know more.
 
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Old 10-09-08, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Slusser is churlish View Post

I did not say Autotrol valves were made by GE.

Anything sold online has the same factory warranty as the same thing sold by a local dealer. You simply call the online dealer as you would the local dealer; not a plumber.
Gary, you said that that GE softeners are made by EcoWater. I don't think you could be more wrong. It's one thing to inaccurately generalize but another when you credit one company for making something don't have anything to do with.

And an on-line warranty is NOT to same as if you bought it locally. That 'on-line' will never come to your house and fix, adjust or replace it, period. Your local guy must do that as part of his assurance to his customer that what HE put in there is working. Advantages or otherwise notwithstanding, they are not the same.

Come on Gary, we know you sell on line and you want people from forums to come to you but to say that the warranties are the same is like saying...well, that GE makes Whirlpool Kenmore and Sears softeners, isn't it?

If you want people to to trust you, you need to be accurate and factual and not always find fault in anyone who does business directly with customers. It is not professional to criticize other companies, products and services only to promote yourself.

I find your ID (churlish) to be an interesting choice is describing how you prefer other to call you.
 
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Old 10-09-08, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by churlish View Post

No I'm not a fan of the GE owned Autotrol valves. GE softeners are made by Ecowater and are interchangeable with the Kenmore, Whirlpool and North Star brands.
Isn't this what you said. It infers that GE makes Autotrol.

Originally Posted by churlish
Although his figures do not give you very good salt efficiency and are wrong for regular mesh resins. I.E. in a 1.0 cuft 6 lbs gives you 20k and 12 lbs in a 1.5 cuft gives you 33.6K. That's with a 50% freeboard. His efficiency; 20,000/8 = 2500 grains/lb. and 30000/12= 2500. To use his 5600 mechanical metered control, you need to deduct one day's worth of capacity for the reserve.
Wouldn't having 2 extra pounds of salt equal a days worth of capicity? It's just an easier way to explain it to the laymen. So I guess my figure aren't wrong after all.

Trying to make yourself look good again Gary and shot down by the better aimer.
 
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Old 10-09-08, 08:40 AM
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Dustbow,
Don't get me wrong. There are not too many units I don't like. Autotrol, Clack, Kinetico and Fleck all make good products. But you have a wide range of prices. And I'm stuck on one valve, the Fleck 5600.

As for Gary, you can see he twist words to make himself look like the hero. He is just a cyber salesman IMO. I've read hundreds of his posts and he seems to have one thing on his mind.

Most of us here are true professionals and will give honest opinions. You asked about the Autotrol and I told you it was a good valve.

Hope our bickering hasn't discouraged you.
 
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Old 10-10-08, 11:38 AM
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In case others are having a problem with what I said... "GE owned Autotrol valves" means that GE owns the Autotrol name/company.

And... if there can be anyone else that doesn't understand this... "GE softeners are made by Ecowater.". That means, if you've seen those GE softeners at Home Depot or a GE Appliance dealer etc., they are made by Ecowater that makes Kenmore, Whirlpool, North Star and mortonsalt.com softeners etc..

The subject of this thread is; GE Logix valve... I said, the Logix is a timer, not a control valve. That is true; the 760 is also a timer and there are many others that fit Autotrol 255, 263 and 268 control valves.

GE does not make the Logix timer or any other timer or the Autotrol control valves the Logix or other Autotrol timers are used on, Autotrol does. And Autotrol, a separate company is owned by GE but...

Many dealers, pump and plumbing supply houses and plumbers and well drillers along with web sites and dealer suppliers are calling Autotrol based softeners and/or filters GE and some prospective customers are repeating that, see the subject above; which is untrue and a misrepresentation.
 
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Old 10-10-08, 08:42 PM
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Dustbow, no, 2 lbs of salt is not how the reserve capacity is covered or calculated.

As to my "sales pitch".... I received the below quotes from a competitor's customer today because they didn't give him programming info, and he thought he bought the softener from me.

**************
"So, based on information you published, I calculated that my SFR would dominate my resin requirement, and I would need 2.5 ft3 of resin. I then ordered off the website (if not the one I intended to use).".

"Two adults and two children live in our home. We have two full baths and one shower. I wanted to make sure that I still would have soft water when both baths and shower were in use at the same time. With all faucets running, I measured water collected for 10 seconds at each location and summed them. The total came to 15-16 gpm. .... It just occurred to me to take advantage of the Clack's ability to measure the SFR, so I turned the same faucets on and checked the reading. It indicated 13.1gmp (current) and 13.3gmp (highest).".
*************

The Clack doesn't "measure the SFR", it measures and records the peak demand/max gpm currently and of each of the last 6 days plus the highest gpm ever run through it since start up.

I've given him the programming info and data he needed.
 
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Old 10-10-08, 10:51 PM
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Ok Gary, answer a few questions.
Twice the diameter of a pipe = 4 times the flow correct?
A 1" pipe will flow 16 GPM continous and 30 GPM peak correct?
That means a 1/2" pipe will flow 4 times LESS correct?
16/4=4 GPM continous and 30/4=7.5 GPM peak correct?
This is the flow rate of a 1/2" pipe correct? And a 3/4" pipe is 1.5 times bigger correct?
That means to get the flow rate for a 3/4 pipe the formula is 4 GPM*1.5=6 GPM continous and 7.5*1.5=11.25 peak
A 1 cf softener with a Fleack 5600 valve will flow 9 continous and 12 peak correct?
If all these figures are true (which they are) than please explain to all of us how in the HELL you can get the kind of flow rate you are talking about out of a 5/8" water meter?

Why are so many homes (single & 2 story, 3 and 4 bedroom with 2-3 bathrooms) plumbed in 3/4 pipe? Could it be that it will have enough flow, continous or peak to meet the demand?

I had to dig up some old books (1990) to remind myself you are full it it!

[QUOTE] CHURLISH
The flow at a tub is a snapshot of the condition of your plumbing and your water pressure only. It is only part of your peak demand flow rate of the house. The constant SFR of the softener has to be greater than the peak demand or the softener can not remove all the hardness etc. that it is supposed to. The constant SFR gpm of a "30K" is 9 gpm.

You need to recheck your data.
 

Last edited by biermech; 10-11-08 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 10-11-08, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by biermech View Post
1" pipe will flow 16 GPM continous and 30 GPM peak correct?
There's no such thing as continuous and peak gpm flow rates of any type of pipe/tubing unless you adjust the pressure. Without pressure no water flows.

A pipe will flow whatever gpm the pressure and friction loss per/foot of the type of pipe will allow. There is no "continuous' or "peak" flow ratings of a pipe.

Anyway, it seems there's something wrong with your figures. As you should have seen, he said; "Two adults and two children live in our home. We have two full baths and one shower. I wanted to make sure that I still would have soft water when both baths and shower were in use at the same time. With all faucets running, I measured water collected for 10 seconds at each location and summed them. The total came to 15-16 gpm. .... It just occurred to me to take advantage of the Clack's ability to measure the SFR, so I turned the same faucets on and checked the reading. It indicated 13.1gmp (current) and 13.3gmp (highest).".
**********
Two full baths and one shower... 15-16 gpm .... Then the actually measured 13.1 and max 13.3 gpm for his family of 4 in his 2 bathroom house. I don't know because he isn't my customer but I'll bet he has a 3/4" copper water line.
 
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Old 10-11-08, 08:12 PM
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I will let the publisher of the plumbing book where I got the info know YOU said they are wrong!
 
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Old 10-15-08, 08:42 AM
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Actually, GE softeners that are in Home Depot and other big box stores, are made for the GE "appliance division" by ecowater. They are (were) a totally seperate division then the "water treatment" portion of GE, (performa/logix/255 etc...)and The Autotrol/ osmonics/aquamatic/etc.... now as of recently purchased by Pentair! / fleck/ sta-rite / pentek from GE are all now under one corporate roof! So much for more competition and competitive pricing.Hard to keep up with all the corporate mergers! Soon GE softeners will truly only be an ecowater/ northstar/sears with a different sticker on it since GE sold autotrol to Pentair,lol.
It will get more confusing before it gets easy!
 
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Old 10-15-08, 10:47 AM
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Interesting. I recently read an announcement that Pentair and GE partnered in some way on something but it wasn't said that GE sold Autotrol or anything else to Pentair. If that's the case, GE Water will be out of business and I doubt that is going to happen but the whole of GE is in serious financial trouble so who knows what they'll do about it.

GE has been calling any equipment with an Autotrol valve a GE. They have told plumbing and pump supply houses and all Autotrol dealers it is fine to call it a GE. That's been going on for over 5 years.

And if the Home Depot GE softener is made by GEwater, they must buy and use the same clamp on control valve and flanged tank as the other big box brands but I hear they use a slightly different motor. My understanding is that all other parts except the cabinetry are the same as on the mortonsalt.com, Whirlpool, North Star (with a valve cover) and Kenmore brands. The warranty is the same of very close on all of them. That is from a Sears service tech with something like 15-20 years with them; the part numbers are different but it's the same part.

Anyway, as all softeners and backwashed or regenerated filters, they all have a maximum and constant SFR.
 
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Old 10-15-08, 11:59 AM
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FWIW, after talking more with the company, they do offer Fleck valves so I'm not stuck w/ the GE Logix if I want to use them.
They carry the 5600 and 2510 series of Fleck valves so I am planning on going with one of those - probably the 5600SE or the 5600 meter.
 
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Old 10-15-08, 07:01 PM
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I think you're making a mistake but... then you might want to get the model specific special Fleck tools if you want to fix either one yourself.
 
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Old 10-15-08, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DustBow View Post
FWIW, after talking more with the company, they do offer Fleck valves so I'm not stuck w/ the GE Logix if I want to use them.
They carry the 5600 and 2510 series of Fleck valves so I am planning on going with one of those - probably the 5600SE or the 5600 meter.
Th SE version will serve you well. At least there is one here that is willing to help you as you get set up. Biermech, I'm sure will take you step by step on the set up and service. It's good to work with those that are wiling to help in a professionall way.
 
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Old 10-16-08, 09:48 AM
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Thanks, I do somethings around the house DIY-style, but any heavy duty plumbing is something I stay away from. Especially when it involves cutting into my main water line among other things....no way am I even trying.
Once they get the softener installed and running, hopefully I won't have to mess much with it at all except for adding salt once in a while. I will learn the basics about the meter and salt settings, and once I find the right balance, I shouldn't have to mess much w/ those either.

I don't here as much about the 2510 valve - it appears to be just a little more "heavy-duty" compared to the 5600. But I believe the 5600 should be fine for my needs and only regenerating once a week
 
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Old 10-16-08, 01:49 PM
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About 90% of my customers install their own softener although half of them or more have never soldered before. I send a link to a Windows movie file that runs about 15 minutes and it teaches a person how to solder. With practice of maybe 30 minutes, anyone that wants to learn to solder can and they can do it as well as someone having soldered for 30 years. My record is two 72 year old spinster twin sisters in FL only 4' 11" tall. They did it all, assembly, setup, programming and installation themselves in 3+ hours. Of course without my very detailed 7 pages of instructions and 18 pictures they would have been lost. You can buy a complete soldering kit at any big box store for like $55-$70.

And if ya don't wanna solder, use Snake Bite or QEST fittings OR, flexible corrugated SS or copper tubing and two MPT brass compression fittings. You can get the SS flex tubing from 12"-4' long. And be done in maybe an hour and a half. Or not, many local dealers are selling the ClackWS-1.

BTW, I have sold Fleck valves for 21 years and serviced them for 18 years; thousands of the 5600 and many brass 2500 and Noryl 2510 valves. Along with the 1500, 6600 and 6700 and twin tank TwinFlo 100e, 9000 and 9100 valves. And a number of Autotrol valves. I used to be one of only five dealers in the US that was approved by Autotrol to build their patented proportional brined distributor used with the 169/463i and assemble myown softeners etc.. Today that is called the Avantapur (269/463i). I also sold and serviced the old Technetic and revised Technetic 1000.

I can tell you that the 5600 is not as good as the 2510 and the Clack WS-1 is better than all the others; especially for a guy that would want to replace a part when needed.
 
 

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