Adding waste solenoids to Kinetico Para-Flo valves to control backwash times...


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Old 06-27-09, 03:20 PM
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Question Adding waste solenoids to Kinetico Para-Flo valves to control backwash times...

After consulting with my water treatment equipment installer, he has recommended he (or I) install a solenoid valve and timeclock to the WASTE LINE of our Kinetico Para-Flow valves that control our Neutralizer and Greensand Filter. This will allow us to control the times of backwash to off-peak hours (2am for example).

However, I need some guidance on where to install the Orbit irrigation solenoid valves...

The Kinetico Para-Flo valve has TWO outlets that dump to waste. One is high on the valve and looks to be associated with the meter wheel and then another outlet mid-valve that I assume relates to the backwash and flush waste line.

So, do I install the solenoid after the waste tee fitting so BOTH waste lines are timeclock controlled or do I install the valve on the mid-valve line that wastes the backwash/flush only, leaving the upper waste line uncontrolled?

I'm thinking it needs to stop and control BOTH LINES as the top waste line does not control "in use" metering flow as there is nothing come out of either waste line until backwash.

I need to do this control because our well cannot supply enough water to backwash and support household use at the same time. The filters are, at times, not getting enough flow to backwash and flush properly if the shower is going or some other high flow appliance is on.

I tried to google an INSTALLATION manual for cycle details but no luck. I have the OWNERS manual but it does not get into cycle or plumbing details.

Thanks in advance... Beer 4U2

Rmpl
 
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Old 06-27-09, 05:15 PM
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Your water treatment installer, is tha a Kinetico technician?

What kind of pump do you have? I have never heard of a shut off solenoid used in that manner. There is a control switch that prevents two Kineticos from backwashing at the same time, perhaps that's what he meant. If one is backwashing

So you have a Kinetico greensand and a Kinetico neutralizer, right. The neutralizer has ten-inch tanks and the greensand have nine-inch tanks, right? What is your line pressure ??/??psi? Are the lines going into it 3/4" or 1"?

What is your source water pH? And what is your service water pH? Is the greensand used to remove iron or sulfur?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 06-27-09, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyC
Your water treatment installer, is tha a Kinetico technician?
Yes, he is a Kinetico dealer. I had them here Tuesday to figure out why we were getting some untreated water in the potable finish side occasionally and to see why we had some very fine sand on top of the meter gear on the Neutralizer.

The summary was that our well can't supply enough water for both backwash & household use at the same time and our filters are not fully backwashing and not fully flushing before going back into service (we often had purple-tinged water for a day here and there). Our well was also occasionally pulling air (some air bubbles in the Rusco spin-down filter) because of draw-down and the well not refreshing fast enough.

Besides adding in a raw storage tank with secondary pump, which he is quoting me on, he recommended I restrict the filters from backwashing until off-hours so that they have full psi and flow from the well. They would do the work, but I'm good at plumbing and electrical so I am DIY to save $$$.

As for where to mount the valves, I could ask the technician but that would be earliest on Monday. I was hoping to install them Sunday... I might have to wait though...

I have a dual tank Para-Flo 100 for the Neutralizer and a dual-tank Para-Flo 80 for the greensand that removes IRON. Both tanks look to be the same diameter, just the 80 is shorter. Valves look identical... Neutralizer has a "2" wheel and the Greensand has a "4" I think...

Originally Posted by AndyC
So you have a Kinetico greensand and a Kinetico neutralizer, right. The neutralizer has ten-inch tanks and the greensand have nine-inch tanks, right? What is your line pressure ??/??psi? Are the lines going into it 3/4" or 1"?
The well is 160 feet deep with, I think, a 1/2HP submersible. I do not know how deep the pump goes down, but the well is 160 and the casing is 50 feet.

The psi switch is set for 50/80 I think. The lines are 3/4" CPVC. I just added a Rusco 140-mesh spin-down filter to remove some fine sand the well seems to be pumping.

I think the well is putting out 5-6gpm under pressure. He measured it but I do not have the results in front of me, he is mailing them to me with the bill (ouch!!!). But I was there and I think those are the numbers he mentioned... The well driller report from 1992 said it was 5gpm...

It is also sucking some air somewhere as we see some bubbles in the Rusco filter... I'm assuming it can only come from drawdown creating a vortex to the pump... The well is not refreshing as fast as it once was I am told, and they can hear splashing in the casing as water falls into well from aquifer fissures during drawdown. I'm sure that is strirring sediment up as well...

He tried to use a ultrasonic meter to get accurate drawdown but because the well is a pipe within a 5" pipe he was getting false readings... When I worked in municipal water we had a meter that dropped down a weighted wire and pegged the meter when it hit water. Simple and effective. I don't know why they don't have one... So much for technology (ultrasound)...

The resting level was at 22 feet and the last drawdown level he was able to get was 66 feet before gauge gave bad readings...

Those filters need a 6gpm flow I think, so it needs everything the well has... I personally think the system is TOO BIG for the home (950 sg ft and only 2 adults, one child, one bathroom), but that is what they sold the previous owner. It was installed in 1993 with a new well too.

Originally Posted by AndyC
What is your source water pH? And what is your service water pH? Is the greensand used to remove iron or sulfur?

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
I have no clue what the results are now...
Greensand is to remove IRON.

Hope this helps...
 
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Old 06-27-09, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyC
I have never heard of a shut off solenoid used in that manner.
The concept is to shut off the filter WASTE to drain so that it forces to filter to WAIT to backwash until the timeclock opens the solenoid (15 minutes for neutralizer & 75 minutes greensand). Since those valves are non-electrical and powered by water flow, the filter has to wait to backwash until flow is allowed through the waste.

We then set the timeclock to activate in the early am hours when there is no household flow...

It is a work around our well supply issue until I can get enough $$$ to get the storage tank & secondary pump...

Or maybe, if system is too big, just get a smaller filter system...

Rmpl
 
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Old 07-01-09, 07:05 AM
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Question

I'm really curious about this one... How does the filter know to "wait" to clean?

Logic would dictate that it would attempt to clean with an occluded drain which would result in no water movement, and the controller would just be going through the motions of a cleaning cycle without actually cleaning at all.

Originally Posted by rmplstlskn
The concept is to shut off the filter WASTE to drain so that it forces to filter to WAIT to backwash until the timeclock opens the solenoid (15 minutes for neutralizer & 75 minutes greensand). Since those valves are non-electrical and powered by water flow, the filter has to wait to backwash until flow is allowed through the waste.

We then set the timeclock to activate in the early am hours when there is no household flow...

It is a work around our well supply issue until I can get enough $$$ to get the storage tank & secondary pump...

Or maybe, if system is too big, just get a smaller filter system...

Rmpl
 
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Old 07-01-09, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rmplstlskn
The concept is to shut off the filter WASTE to drain so that it forces to filter to WAIT to backwash until the timeclock opens the solenoid (15 minutes for neutralizer & 75 minutes greensand). Since those valves are non-electrical and powered by water flow, the filter has to wait to backwash until flow is allowed through the waste.

We then set the timeclock to activate in the early am hours when there is no household flow...

It is a work around our well supply issue until I can get enough $$$ to get the storage tank & secondary pump...

Or maybe, if system is too big, just get a smaller filter system...

Rmpl

Yes, I understand the concept and mechanism but I have never geard of one being attached to a Kinetico. As I said, there is one that can be attached to two Kinetico valves and one won't start backwash until the other has completed its cycles. Just never saw a timered one that works off a clock

Sorry. Let me know more when you find out.
Andy
 
 

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