if not RainSoft, then who?

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Old 07-27-10, 06:14 AM
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if not RainSoft, then who?

Hi all,
the wife and I just sat through a presentation for rainsoft last night, and unfortunately bit, but this morning woke up with clearer heads and will be cancelling prior to install.
With that said, it was a TON of money, if it was cheaper, I'd try it, but at 5k, I just can't see doing it.

We do have hard water and we knew that from the feel of it, plus the open hole in the drywall in the garage where they obviously used to have a water softener/conditioner before we bought it (It was a foreclosure).

I'm not sure if the whole sales pitch about impurities, but right now its my wife and I and I think we just want something affordable and trustable.

The reviews I read about RainSoft were mainly bad, so it scared me a lot.

Please help!
 
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Old 07-27-10, 07:09 AM
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Value is set by many markers. I have sold systems for nearly $15,000 and others for less than $50.00 The $5000.00 mark means nothing without attaching it to specifics.

What did they offer? Now, I have heard Rainsoft offering more the sizzle than the steak. In other words, most people bought the results more than the understanding of where their money actually went.

Was the technology explained? The reason I ask is I have seen where customers got a discount from model to the next but didn't realize they were buying a timer unit rather than a demand one.

What was the "impurities" aspect? Were there any scare tactics?

Rainsoft has the tendency to attach items to the sale including soap packages, ""lifetime"" warranty, air purifiers, etc. And many times a stress on the buy-now approach with 'special' offers denied otherwise.

All in all, what did you learn about your water, the technology offered, and what hurdles did you place in front of them to accomplish their final offer.

There are many fine choices for water treatment---and may blunders,a s well...do your research both on- and off-line.

Treat your water seriously.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-27-10, 07:22 AM
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Hi Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I understand the value aspect.

The technology was not truly explained, nto to make it seem better than others on the market. They used a TON of scare tactics and basically showed me that it seems I have 11 is it parts per gallon? of hard water and of course, some impurities and chlorine.

They also attached the membership in the coupon thing and the "Free soap" too. The model number they quoted I believe was the AMT? The handwriting is not terribly good.

The lifetime warranty and the "buy now" were also what made us jump at it then...but then reading some more about it and other water treatment, we decided its not worth jumping at something so expensive without knowing what else exists.

The only hurdles we gave were the idea of paying for it, so he offered a home depot same as cash for a year, but its still a lot of money and they started at the huge price tag and came down not enough hurdles.


I've been trying to read this forum a bit this morning and it seems that a Flec or Autotrol unit might be all I need at much less the cost.

Does it sound like I have it right?

Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Value is set by many markers. I have sold systems for nearly $15,000 and others for less than $50.00 The $5000.00 mark means nothing without attaching it to specifics.

What did they offer? Now, I have heard Rainsoft offering more the sizzle than the steak. In other words, most people bought the results more than the understanding of where their money actually went.

Was the technology explained? The reason I ask is I have seen where customers got a discount from model to the next but didn't realize they were buying a timer unit rather than a demand one.

What was the "impurities" aspect? Were there any scare tactics?

Rainsoft has the tendency to attach items to the sale including soap packages, ""lifetime"" warranty, air purifiers, etc. And many times a stress on the buy-now approach with 'special' offers denied otherwise.

All in all, what did you learn about your water, the technology offered, and what hurdles did you place in front of them to accomplish their final offer.

There are many fine choices for water treatment---and may blunders,a s well...do your research both on- and off-line.

Treat your water seriously.
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-27-10, 08:37 AM
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So I called to cancel and now i'm being told because of "overshipment" they can sell it for $2750, which is a $2200 price drop.

Its the EC4 unit.... does this make it any better?
 
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Old 07-27-10, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mr1120 View Post
So I called to cancel and now i'm being told because of "overshipment" they can sell it for $2750, which is a $2200 price drop.

Its the EC4 unit.... does this make it any better?
Do you really want to do business with a firm that employs such sales tactics?
 
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Old 07-27-10, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
Do you really want to do business with a firm that employs such sales tactics?
nope..I've already cancelled... I do, however want a softener and p[ossibly a whole house purifier... if you all can point me in a more affordable but good selection
 
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Old 07-27-10, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mr1120 View Post
Hi Andy,

They also attached the membership in the coupon thing and the "Free soap" too. The model number they quoted I believe was the AMT? The handwriting is not terribly good.
OMG. Their AMT is an antique design TIMER model. Timer water softeners are probably THE most wasteful units, regardless of who makes them.
http://www.rainsoftoftoronto.com/manuals/AM32T.pdf
They regenerate regardless of how much or how little you use the water. Completely useless in a modern, living home. OK for jail cells where prisoners are limited to exact number of gallons per day and the Sheriff really cares how you feel, though. Also called the landlord's special: "ya got your softener, shut up and pay the rent."

The strange thing is they offered you a 'better' unit with their discounted price.
http://www.rainsoftoftoronto.com/manuals/AM32T.pdf
I have seen it happen the other way around before...unless they thought you did some research and discovered a learning curve and developed a higher sense of value and understanding.

All that being said, you may have taken the right path. You need to trust those you deal with and understand what they in.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
 
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Old 07-27-10, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mr1120 View Post
So I called to cancel and now i'm being told because of "overshipment" they can sell it for $2750, which is a $2200 price drop.

Its the EC4 unit.... does this make it any better?
Ah yes, the 'overshipment' deal. That and the "home show demo" models and the "scratch and dent" and the "service training" models are all available as a last resort with Rainsoft.

I think you learned a lot so far.

The Fleck, Autotrol and Clack models are good given proper sizing and design. Just for kicks, though, call Kinetico and let them present their units at least to compare sale ethics and tactics. Kineticos are not cheap but are unique and of a high quality. They do have a loyal customer base and last for decades.

BTW, what did you mean by whole house purifier? "pure" water is, at best, an ambiguous term and often used more in marketing than by water treatment professionals...what's pure for a house painting company is not pure for a lab technician, or gardener, or cook, etc.

Andy
 
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Old 07-27-10, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Ah yes, the 'overshipment' deal. That and the "home show demo" models and the "scratch and dent" and the "service training" models are all available as a last resort with Rainsoft.

I think you learned a lot so far.

The Fleck, Autotrol and Clack models are good given proper sizing and design. Just for kicks, though, call Kinetico and let them present their units at least to compare sale ethics and tactics. Kineticos are not cheap but are unique and of a high quality. They do have a loyal customer base and last for decades.

BTW, what did you mean by whole house purifier? "pure" water is, at best, an ambiguous term and often used more in marketing than by water treatment professionals...what's pure for a house painting company is not pure for a lab technician, or gardener, or cook, etc.

Andy
Sorry, I should have said a conditioner and softener
 
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Old 07-27-10, 07:17 PM
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If you are willing to do your own install/programming/and any downstream maintenance you can buy a high quality softener from an internet supplier for well under $1000 delivered. The price will depend on the size of the unit and whether you go with a twin tank unit. I recommend a Fleck control head--the Fleck 7000 if you go with a single resin tank unit or a Fleck 9100 if you go with a twin unit.

To be a DIYer you need to know your water analysis and need the basic plumbing/mechanical skills to install the softener.

If you want to buy with full service look for an independent water treatment company that sells/installs/services. I would again recommend a Fleck control head--or a Clack control head (Clack no longer allows internet sales but are available from local independent dealers).
 
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Old 07-30-10, 01:08 PM
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Glad you decided to kick Rainsoft to the curb. They are just way overpriced. You can get the same quailty water for much less. I prefer a Fleck 5600 Meter Demand. I do not like electronics on softeners.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 10:48 AM
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Whether you select a Fleck or Clack valve, at least you'll not be held hostage by some of the national dealers who overcharge for their proprietary parts. Most important elements in your selection (since you already have the water hardness, chlorine, TDS - assuming you're on "safe" city/municipal water) are going to be:
1. The main line pipe size - you mentioned their was already a hole in the garage - was it reduced from the original piping the builder set up off the main line (i.e. 1 1/4" to 1")
2. The fixture count to determine your sevice flow rate needed
3. Occupancy to determine the estimated water usage.

Metered systems using simple electronics reduce the total regeneration time period versus a standard Fleck 5600 valve. I sell a lot of standard Fleck 5600 systems that are very easy to service, move, & program without having to purchase different metering disks if the water hardness changes or you move to a higher hardness area. Electric cost per year on 24v is about $3 - $4. Salt usage is the same as a non-electric softener. Uses far less water than a non-electric softener. Get your three quotes and go with who you feel will be there to provide down the road service as needed.

Lastly, most commissioned salespeople will not be there 2-3 yrs in the future if you need to discuss what was promised - get everything in writing, meet the owner/general manager. If you want to make the trip, ask to see their local dealership facility. For internet wholesalers, ask for photos of their offices. See what responses you get.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Art with Rayne View Post
Salt usage is the same as a non-electric softener. Uses far less water than a non-electric softener.
Not sure what you are basing these statements. Perhaps you could draw up a water condition, unit suggested and water and salt use.

For example:
18 grains
0.5 ppm iron
four people
typical water use (60gpdpp) for a period of one month.

What would be your most efficient set up? Thanks Art.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Not sure what you are basing these statements. Perhaps you could draw up a water condition, unit suggested and water and salt use.

For example:
18 grains
0.5 ppm iron
four people
typical water use (60gpdpp) for a period of one month.

What would be your most efficient set up? Thanks Art.
Number of bathrooms?
Number of bedrooms?
gallon per minute from well or city?
 
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Old 08-08-10, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
Number of bathrooms?
Number of bedrooms?
gallon per minute from well or city?
Fair enough. Very normal/typical water situation.

3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, 7 - 11 (peak) gpm well water front loading washer, no pool/jacuzzi/hot tub. 3/4" plumbing with 1/2" fixtures. No RO. Submersible pump, 20-gallon pressure tank at 40-60psi.

Not sure why the number of bedrooms is important.
Thanks
 
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Old 08-08-10, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Fair enough. Very normal/typical water situation.

3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, 7 - 11 (peak) gpm well water front loading washer, no pool/jacuzzi/hot tub. 3/4" plumbing with 1/2" fixtures. No RO. Submersible pump, 20-gallon pressure tank at 40-60psi.

Not sure why the number of bedrooms is important.
Thanks
How many people could be in the house at a later date if there where to be 2 people per bedroom.
 
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Old 08-08-10, 07:28 PM
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How many people could be in the house at a later date if there where to be 2 people per bedroom.
Just four people. I didn't think this going to be convoluting. No cousins visting for the weekend, no cheerleading carwashing fund raises, no leaky toilets....just four people using 60 gpdpp at 18 grains and 0.5 ppm iron.

What would the be recommended system, what settings, how many gallons per regeneration, salt settings, number of gallons between regens, etc. in a given one month's (30 days) time?

Actually, this question was in response to Art's comments and was hoping he could contribute.
 
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Old 09-12-10, 05:08 AM
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ok, so i'm back... back on researching this.

Had a busy month, but we actually went to a home show yesterday in the area, mainly for other purposes but got Kinetico's card and info from EcoWater... Ecowater is pricing at $2495.. I have to call Kinetico back as they want to schedule a demo.

As much as i'm intrigued by the Autotrol and Clack systems, I'm not sure if I can do it myself, so I need to research them more.

Plus, is there any of the "store brands" worth looking at? I'm not sure if I mentioned this but currently its 2 of us, with kids eventually on the way, and from what rainsoft said, we have 11g of hardness in our water, but i'm probably better off doing my own test, right?
 
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Old 09-12-10, 06:24 AM
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I don't recommend any of the big box store water softeners. You would be much better off sticking with a softener with a Fleck or Clack control head and a separate brine tank--not a cabinet unit like sold in the big box stores. The control heads used on softeners sold in the big box stores are much more prone to problems. Additionally, the separate brine tank style is much easier to work on.

If you are on city water you should be able to get a water analysis from your water supplier for free. Many post the information on a web site or you can get the information by calling.

If you are on a well stores like Sears offer a free relatively simple water analysis. Do you have any known issues other than hardness that suggest a more complete analysis is desirable? Of course if you are on a well you should periodically test for coliform.
 
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Old 09-13-10, 02:55 AM
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Wink

Best move was turning away from rainsoft that's for certain.
City or Well water??
Softening Water..... get a "METERED" system that clean's by the gallon -not by the day no matter what brand/size you buy on a softner.
Make sure it has a separate brine tank at all cost.
I wld get a mechanical head vs. anything digital.
I can work on most any out there, But Suggest mostly/alway's either a Fleck system and Ionic's/Puronic's system's only.
Respectivlly A fleck system can be worked on by just about anyone, even you.
Ionic's with proper info is the absolut best, and doesn't cost 1/2 as much as ppl think if you have an insider, and fleck is the next and so simplified.
** the differance is: Are you on City or Well?
Until that's known, and as well what your testing's found were,
your not gonna get a true proper reply.
Call alocal water company out and the city if it's a city water feed, have em' test it for free, but test for "everything" not just total hardness. Ph balance, TDS's( total disolved solid's), all of it.
If your on a well test for Tannin's as well just cause.
*I Frequently use Flowers- which is a test facility in my area, that will not just test for basic's but regular testing used by local water compnies for example when they test for sulfer, will test and use messurment's at 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5 ECT: but flower's will give an actual test reading down to .0000685 that won't show up on common test's given by water companies...., so they show you what's in your city water that regular testng will not. smaller amonut's will build-up and react.

I frequently also put in a smal Carbon tower on multiple city homes sitea that were previously using only a 1 media vessel set up.

**Separating the SOFTENING RESIN from the actual CARBON since most softeing system's come with it mixed eliminates completely -the issue of ever messing with separating differant media's for exchanges when needed. and simplifies all future service work and cost's.
 
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