Filter after softener?

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Old 04-09-12, 11:43 AM
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Filter after softener?

Are there any filters or a UV lamp that should go after the softener?
I'm going to be sending a water sample into the lab shortly, and based on the results, will be totally replacing my current (old) system.

Right now I have a single 5 micron filter (potentially too small) and a Kinetico water softener (date written in marker on the side indicates it was installed in 1987). I do not have a preasure gauge after the filter/softener, but I suspect the preasure has taken a hit going through the stuff.
The target is to save my water depended appliances and be able to drink water from any tap (either the kitchen, or one of the bathrooms on the second floor).
 
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Old 04-09-12, 12:58 PM
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Well, I do see what problem you are trying to solve. You're not stating that you are getting hard water or iron. You are not saying your water tastes bad. And you are not saying that that it is infested with organics let alone, pathogens. Without now what problems to solve, it is difficult to recommend a 'solution'.

I suppose your tanks on the softener are tan in color, right? Pressure will always decrease whenever you pass water through anything. Some things can cause a decrease more than others. Is pressure loss a problem, a nuisance, or just noticeable?

I would use a 20- or 25-micron pre-filter rather than a 5-.

In reality, you don't need to replace the softener. A few minor updates and upgrades can put that back into like-new condition and last another 25 years for a fraction of the cost of replacement.

Where are you located?

Andy Christensen
 
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Old 04-10-12, 05:30 AM
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AndyC,

I guess I should have provided all the background info for you.
I moved into this 1930's house December 27th 2011, only to find that preventitive maintenance was not something the previous owner knew of. Had to replace one circulation pump for my hotwater heat on the 28th and the other on January 2nd (thanks to the water quality issues).
Replaced the dishwasher and washing maching shortly after for the same reasons.

Now, back on topic...
We are on Well water (225' deep well, 8" pipe(?), first water table is less then 50' down), and city sewer.
Water comes in from the well, into the preasure tank. From the tank, through the one filter then into the old softener (pics below).
The softener is truely on the flake. If I had to guess, I would say it's a damaged gear or something. When we moved in, there was no salt. Loaded the hopper with 4 20km bags (which lasted until yesturday). The salt level never moved for the longest time. I had done countless regrin passes then suddenly the water in the house was clean(er). Not stains in the tub or toilets. But holy did it kill the salt (guessing almost 2 bags worth). Was ok with the consumption as for now, it was working. That lasted a day or so then it was back to the crap water.
The water is high in iron btw.
So with the softener not working again, ran it through another regrin pass and it's working. When I did this pass, you can smell the stink big time from the discharge.

So... recap;
- well --> 5 micron filter --> flaky softener
- filter does remove a fair bit of settlement (including visible chunks in the bottom of the canister.
- Definately iron issue (sample going into the lab shortly for all info)


The softener:





To answer you last question, I am in Noelville Ontario Canada.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 05:45 AM
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As Andy stated I would change the pre filter to a 25 micron. I would buy iron out and follow the instructions to restore the resin. You may need to do this a few times.

The resin may still be good since you are on a well but it may just be fouled.

You need to mix the iron out with water and pour it down the brine tube, Thats the tube where yo add the salt to the tank. It sends the iron out solution to the bottom of the salt tank so it regens with that solution. That should clean out the resin bed.

Then do a before and after with a hardness test.

I would keep that system and just upgrade it accordingly.

I know nothing about the maintenance on those heads so the pros will let you know what to do if the head is not working properly.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-10-12, 05:48 AM
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lawrosa;
That iron out, is it safe for human consumption?
 
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Old 04-10-12, 05:58 AM
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I believe its more or less citric acid. But it gets used in backwash only and you should have no residual if the unit is working properly.

http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/o..._iron_out/#faq

Here is the MSDS sheets

http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/d...Iron%20Out.pdf

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-10-12, 06:05 AM
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I will definately give it a try. Would be nice to get this working and put the money for a new softener towards something else in this house.

For the filters before the softener, I'll look into picking up a second filter canister. Will look at a larger micron filter first, followed by probably a 5 micron as I have now.

If i was to install a UV light, would that go before or after the softener?
 
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Old 04-10-12, 06:11 AM
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The UV would be last after all filtration.

IMO if your looking to drink any water, city or well, install an RO system.

Reverse Osmosis Product Page - Premium RO Drinking Water Filters Systems, Portable Purifiers, Filtration Parts | APEC Water

Mike NJ
 
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Old 04-10-12, 06:14 AM
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I'm already looking into the RO systems. You may remember my whole house RO system thread that lead to the catalac of systems.

That being said, I grew up drinking city water (right from the tap), but now that I am living outside of that town (about 50 miles), I'm on well which is a different ball game.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 06:33 AM
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More filters are definitely NOT better.

The recommendation to move to a 20-25 micron filter is to reduce the resistance to flow. Adding a second filter just increases resistance to flow. If you want to improve the pre-filter situation install a (single) 20" Big Blue pre-filter housing and use a 20 micron cartridge. Remove the existing filter. (of course this assumes you don't presently have a 20" Bib Blue Filter--if you do simple replace the existing cartridge with a 20-25 micron pleated filter cartridge.)
 
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Old 04-10-12, 06:58 AM
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Bob999;
I do not have a big blue. The current system (existing from when I moved in) is a single Rainfresh filer (10"?) and the softener. The 5 micron filters where what was in the unit (and a few spares still in the pack).
I'll look into the larger filter.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 08:41 AM
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So based on what I have read about the iron out, I need to close the valve after the softener going to the rest of the house, with low salt in the hopper, pour the mixture of water/iron out into the tube within the hopper and run a regrin manually.
Once that is done, open the valve and run the nearest tap for a few minutes to remove any remaining iron out, out of the system.

I only have a bag and a bit in the hopper now, but am going to be away on business for the next week, so I think I'll empty out the salt in the hopper tonight and give it a go.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 11:59 AM
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The Iron Out is an ADDITION to the salt during regeneration. BOTH are necessary to rejuvenate the resin.

Closing a valve to prevent water flowing to the house during regeneration with Iron Out is only necessary if there is the possibility of the water being used while regeneration is taking place (and your valve doesn't automatically bypass the softener during regeneration).

Both the salt and Iron Out used during regeneration are flushed to drain during the regeneration cycle by a properly operating softener.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 12:03 PM
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And if it's not properly functioning.... I'll be tasting Iron out when ever it decides to work?
 
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Old 04-10-12, 02:15 PM
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By properly functioning I mean that the control head works properly--moves through each cycle and performs each cycle--including the slow and fast rinse. If it does that, and you don't now taste salt after a regeneration, then you can reasonably expect that the Iron Out will be drawn in during brining and will be rinsed away during slow and fast rinse.

On the other hand--if the control head won't draw salt to regenerate then it also won't draw the Iron Out--the brine with Iron Out will still be in the brine tank.
 
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Old 04-10-12, 03:58 PM
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Sorry, been away for a while.
Resins in those tanks may well need to be replaced. Their capacity and/or volume have been reduced. I see some discoloration in the lens on the valve which indicates that some untreated water has passed through for a while. This could be due to lack of salt or softening capacity.

I would recommend taking the valve apart and cleaning it thoroughly and inspecting it for any problems. I can help you with that. I would definitely switch out the resins and that is something you can do yourself.

It is possible you have the old float, too. Does the pipe go down the middle of the tube inside the brine tank or off center (centre--sorry).

A UV light may not be needed. Get your water tested at a lab for organic matter, especially pathogens. I know UVs are much more popular in Canada, where the best are made. It certainly won't hurt.

It may be that the softener is not metering you service water. There is an easy way to tell without tearing the valve apart.
 
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Old 04-11-12, 04:05 PM
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Here is a picture of inside the hopper (from an older post of mine). The cap as you mentioned does have what appears to be dirty water/crap inside of it.


To further on the conversation previous in this thread, I did the Iron Out treatment as per the instructions on the bottle. Once the regrin was done, I ran the nearest tap until the smell of the Iron out was gone. I had removed most of the salt prior to running it bit did leave enough for the regrin.
Now the hopper stinks of that stuff.
I've run it through a couple more regrin sessions with the house running on the bypass as I don't want that stuff in the pipe work of the rest of the house. I don't know what to do about it now.

Going to pull up the instructions I had obtained regarding disassembling the head of this unit and see about giving a clean. Not sure what I'll do about the hopper. Might have to clean it out and give it a good rinse with water (which should be fun).
 
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Old 04-11-12, 06:01 PM
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AndyC;

Quick question for you. I checked was looking at the head again and noted that yes, it is really full of junk in and around the two arms. Looks like the same slim you find on rocks at a lake shore, but rusty brown. To clean that all out, is it simply, depreasurize the softener tanks (shut off source, and open a near by tap) and remove the 8 bolts?
Is there anything I should be watching out for while doing this?
I was watching it a few minutes ago during another regrin session and noticed the gear is moving on it's own. It is also moving the water pretty good with fairly smooth sounding suction from the line leading to the tank. The dot on the gear is at about the 1 o'clock position, so if I remember correctly, it's currently regrinning the remote take.

I would love to get this going again. Hopefully I can do so during the next few evenings as I am gone out of town for a week and don't want to have to worry about it while I am away (wife and family will be here).
 
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