Miller Or Hobart

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  #1  
Old 11-30-03, 08:11 PM
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Miller Or Hobart

NEED SOME GOOD ADVICE
I AM LOOKING AT PURCHASING A MIG WELDER & THE TWO I AM LOOKING AT ARE MILLER MATIC 175 230V 30% DUTY CYCLE
AMPERAGE RANGE 40-175 AMPS.
THE OTHER ONE IS HOBART HANDLER 175 MIG 230V 30% DUTY CYCLE, AMPERAGE RANGE 30-175 AMPS
WILL BE USING FOR LIGHT DUTY WELDING NO IRON OVER 1/4" THICK & MOST OF THE TIME 1/8" TO 3/16" THICKNESS.
ANY ADVICE ON WHICH WELDER WOULD BE BEST FOR ME WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
PRICE FOR MILLER WITH CART--$699.00
PRICE FOR HOBART WITH CART--$615.00
FREE DELIVERY ON BOTH.
THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR HELP.
 
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Old 12-01-03, 03:32 PM
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Both decent choices in machines. The MM has a couple slightly better features, mostly in the gun, but you will find the HH easier to operate due to the tapped voltage settings. Infinate adjustment sounds fine in theory and works for experienced operators but there were some issues with the wirespeed tracking on the MM. When you adjusted one it affected the other and can be a pain. We have been reccommending the HH for new users and it has very good arc characteristics. Good move to get a 240V machine also. Best results, run 030 solid wire and C25 gas with that machine, it will run 035 but why choke it thru that little machine. The 030 gives a little more range on light material also.
 
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Old 12-04-03, 09:12 AM
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I recently bought a Hobart 175, and am very pleased with it (I run .035 flux wire so far). The dealer I bought it from also sold Millers, and told me that Miller now owns Hobart, and that the two machines are almost identical except for the price. We opened up the hood, and most of the components had the Miller name stamped right on them. It's my observation that blue paint is more expensive.
 
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Old 12-04-03, 04:23 PM
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USING GAS

Originally posted by SKIP
I recently bought a Hobart 175, and am very pleased with it (I run .035 flux wire so far). The dealer I bought it from also sold Millers, and told me that Miller now owns Hobart, and that the two machines are almost identical except for the price. We opened up the hood, and most of the components had the Miller name stamped right on them. It's my observation that blue paint is more expensive.
CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHY I WOULD NEED THE GAS SET UP FOR MIG WELDING. WHAT ADVANTAGE WOULD THERE BE TO THIS RATHER THAN USING JUST THE FLUX WIRE WHICH DOES NOT REQUIRE THE GAS.
THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE.
 
  #5  
Old 12-04-03, 07:30 PM
OudeVanDagen
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As for the gas .... radically improves the shape, profile, and properties of the joint ..... reduces spatter ..... also improves penetration ... makes for better bead appearance.

C25 in USA is 75% argon & 25% carbon dioxide .... Atal 5 is 85 argon 15 co2 .... in UK (am forgetting gas trade name) 95 argon 5 co2 .... in China 80 argon 20 co2 .... by any name worth the $$$
 
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Old 12-05-03, 11:08 AM
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The gas C25 here is nice for thin work and poor fitup and has no slag so filling cracks and gaps is easy with no cleanup. With a 175 you can weld metals to about 1/4 thick this way. I have 2 feeders, both using gas for shop work, they do not work well oustide with breeze or on dirty or rusted materials. Fluxcore is also better with that small machine on heavier metal. If you are welding inside, get the HH175, 030 wire and C25 gas. It takes a 20A 240V circuit.
 
  #7  
Old 12-05-03, 08:12 PM
OudeVanDagen
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Just to follow-up on my above reply .... my opinion on the value of using a shielding gas is that the welder has much better control of his arc and puddle ..... resulting in a better weld.

In very general terms .... an electric current has electrons and ions. In welding, electron speed is increased .... bombarding the workpiece and creating high heat. Heat is both good and bad. By introducing a shielding gas like C25 ... a 2 part or binary gas ... the welder can make that "bad" heat work for him. The Argon in C25 has low thermal conductivity which allows the welder best control of his arc at high temperature. The co2 in C25 has a heavy density which prevents contaminents in the surrounding air from mixing into the weld.

C25 at the right flow with the right wire ... using sberry27's #030 for example ... you'll get good clean penetration and a nice looking finished bead.
 
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Old 12-08-03, 02:42 PM
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...prevents contaminents in the surrounding air from mixing into the weld...

The primary purpose of "shielding" gas is to help prevent oxidation of the weld. Gas does this by blocking oxygen from the atmoshere from entering the arc and its puddle. Flux does this by rising to the surface of the puddle and forming a chemical shield to block the O2. Different gases and mixtures of gases impart different qualities to the operation, making them more suitable for some situations (and metals) and less suitable for others.

The main reason, in my opionion, for using mixtures with CO2, is to contain the cost. 100% Argon is several times as expensive as a 25% mixture, and for most welding of mild steel (A36 and similar), the difference is weld quality is not enough to justify the difference in cost. But, if you're welding aluminum or stainless, you gotta have it.

Just about all of my welding is done outside my garage door, on mild steels from 1/8 to 1/4 thick. It would be a big waste of time and money to mig in the wind. If I ever get to the point where I have to weld aluminum, I'll move inside and hook up the gas.[B]
 
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Old 12-08-03, 03:34 PM
OudeVanDagen
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Hydrogen

"Carbon dioxide is dissocated in the arc which results in an increase in the volume of the shielding gas reducing turbulance and the mixing with contaminants, mainly hydrogen from the surrounding air. " Jean Cornu, author Advanced Welding Systems


"C25 USA 75/25. High Carbon Dioxide content offers excellent resistance to contaminants: hydrogen, nitrogen, ....." Linde USA, Linde UK C25 Data Sheets


"5 percent content of co2 in Atal 5 reduces hydrogen contamination, weld embrittlement, micro-cracking and underbeading." L'Aire Liquid Duffour and Charledave


"Carbon Dioxide was, for a long time, a by-product of the manufacture of ethyl alcohol for fermentation. Today it is extracted from the gases produced by combustion of coke or semi-antracite fuels in excess oxygen, and is available as a by-product from other chemical processes. Carbon dioxide used for welding will differ from the standard gas in purity. The high expansion rate and consistant density of carbon dioxide protects the weld from problem impurities such as; hydrogen (up to 1500vpM), nitrogen (up to 200vpM), and oxygen (up to 20vpM)." Jean Cornu (Soudage par fusion en continu 1985 translated to English by John Weston).


"The expansion and density of carbon dioxide in binary mixes eliminates hydrogen contamination." .... "The presence of oxygen can be neutralized by the addition of deoxidants in the wire." Welders Bible
 
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Old 12-09-03, 01:02 PM
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So, if I weld without gases, I am contaminating my welds with Hydrogen? How does this affect the final strength?
 
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Old 12-09-03, 02:39 PM
OudeVanDagen
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Not always ... lots of variables: wire type, material being welded etc .... but when high-sulfur and high-carbon content steels are welded without a shielding gas they often tend to develop porosity and may have micro-cracks because of hydrogen absorption from the arc atmosphere. A shielding gas ... one with an adequate amount of co2 ... will prevent the introduction of hydrogen into the arc atmosphere and produce a much superior weld.

Gas ... the proper type and at a proper flow used with the right wire .... does a number of things in creating a better & cleaner weld. It helps distributes arc energy evenly ... maintaining a stable arc, keeps equilibrium between surface tension and arc pressure, reduces variations in penetration, and allows for more speed.
 
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Old 12-09-03, 10:24 PM
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If you are using fluxcore you dont need gas. The gas is for solid wire in machines of this type. It is a matter of finish, and operator appeal. No slag to clean and is great for filling gaps and poor fitup. The flux core makes its own complete shielding gas.
 
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Old 12-13-03, 06:37 PM
OudeVanDagen
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That's right ... and as I stated above; " ... lots of variables; wire type, material being welded ... " and " ... the right wire ..."

Those variables are key.

As for wire variables .... each wire made has advantages ... disadvantages ... some require no gas ... some need binary gases ... some ternary.

A wire very low in deoxidants, for example, works best in an argon-carbon dioxide-oxygen ternary mix such as Modion or Teral (90/5/5) or Coxogen (80/5/5) ... and an oxygen mix may be wanted, needed for critical welds where surface tension needs to be reduced or where the arc cone needs contraction.

At any rate, oxygen does not present the problems that hydrogen does.
 
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Old 01-09-04, 02:36 PM
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How does the Lincoln SP-175+ compare with the Hobart and the Miller?
 
  #15  
Old 01-31-04, 03:27 PM
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Just my two cents,
I own a welding shop and mig weld on a daily basis.
I also have a portable rig with the mig set up on it.
As for gas I like it and I use what most welding shops call 75/25 which means 75% argon gas and 25% co2 gas, with all the different shops I go into this is a standard set up.
If you you want to save some money on the gas you can run straight co2 gas it causes a little more spatter but might be OK for you.
If you are going to do any structural welding with your mig you will want to buy an ( ER70-S6 wire) the S6 is the key writing to look for on the box of mig wire this wire will meet the A.W.S code for structural.
someone made a comment about welding stainless with the mig and using straight argon, Note: the proper gas mix is a tri mix gas that has approx. 3% of helium mixed with argon and co2.
However a friend of mine says he uses pure argon and it works ok.
congradulations on the welder purchase, I'm sure you will be very happy with the choice you made,Either welder would have been a good choice.
Be carefull with the mig welder, its easy to do a good looking cold weld, I recomending you do some experimentation by welding flat bar to a bigger steel plate and then trying to break it off with a hammer just to get an Idea of what heat range you need to be into for a certain thickness, this will help you get to know your machine. Good luck. Portable welder.
 
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