hello,

we have a 3 tankl septic system, with the 3rd tank being sump pump tank. sump pump is one the best, cost me some $800. we have a switch box or whatever it is called, on the wall, with a door in the front and red light on the top. there's flip switch for alarm on the right hand side of it. should be pretty standard.

about a week ago alarm came up. sump pump tank overflow float was at the very upper fluid level. to keep long story short, this is what i have:

i can turn pump on and off with manual switch in control box and it pumps fine (thank you, lordy)

there's a greyish looking device sitting in the middle of the swich box, about 4 inches long, with a dial in the front of it. apperantly you can set up pump "on" time with it; it plugs into the control box with several prongs, just like a good old radio bulb. it has several "on" "off" LEDs and adjustment dials on the front panel; when i called septic installer, he mentioned to me that this device should have at least some lights up on the front panel; that it does not, i checked when it was very dark, nothing shines. all fuses - 2 - are good.

for about 2 mths before this happened, i heard sort of grinding noise coming from the control box; it is on the living room outside wall, so it's easy to hear, and i even stepped out and pinpointed noise to the control box.

any ideas what's wrong? the septic guy that i trust is very hard to get in and i have learned better than to just call on the 1st name from YP. so far, i have been manually "pumping" once a day and put all 3 of us on lean water use. i am very tempted to replace that "timer" or whatever it is in the control panel, but would hate to do so just to find out that there's no power supply to it, or something, and i am not that good with elctronics to find out. i can do basic voltmeter measurements, but the thing has some 8 or 10 prongs, so what to measure and where and what to expect? also, where can i buy such a timer? internet is taking time to deliver, i'll probably will have that technician in before the timer will come in mail.
it all is not too bad, just awkward and starts getting on my nerve.
will appreciate advice.

 

If you can turn the pump on manually, you can pretty much rule out power supply to the pump. sounds like the float has gotten tangled and cannot respond to high water levels. The Most expensive pump you could possibly buy, is not immune from this , so dont get upset and think that you bought an overpriced piece of junk, because it probably is not
the case.

where do you live? In "winter areas" snow melt down and excessive ground water can "Infiltrate" your tank , and make it very difficult for the pump to keep up with the demand. These pumps are not designed for continuous duty, so this should be repaired as soon as possible to eliminate damaging your pump due to overheating.
if it is any consolation, the float could have just as easily gotten tangled, and locked in the on position, in which case , by now you would be replacing the pump....
In your Grey water tank , there should be 2 floats, one for pump "ON", the other for high water level. ensure both of these are capable of "Floating". If you have the instruction booklet that came with the Control box, it may have a wiring diagram in it. if not, go to the manufacturers website and see if you can download one.if all else fails, seek professional help , before any further damage is done. The water that flows thru the pump during the pumping cycle is responsible for cooling the unit. If the pump is allowed to run "DRY" it will certainly cook itself in a very short period of time.

 

floats are fine. 2 at the bottom and one up on the pole. all power wires are neetly tied into a loop and connected to the very top of the floats pole, so there is nothing hanging down to get cought on. overflow float obviously works fine, as it was halfway submursed when alarm came up.

i pumped everything down to the point that i can see tip of the pump. now overflow float is hanging down in the air, and 2 cutoff floats are almost horizontal in the effluent. pump pumps well, takes about 1.5 minutes to bring effluent from lower floats vertical to lower floats horizontal. and that's where i keep it.

freezing is out of question, i live in seattle area, we did not even have negative temp yet, least to say - freezing for long time. and the critters in the tank keep it nice and warm.

ok, the thing in the middle is:
omron corp timer, h3cr-f8. i found that leads 2 and 7 are "source" and it shows 4.3 volts on the voltmeter as a power supply. in the left hand corner of the control panle there is a transformer; on 2 leads it shows 119V, obviously that's AC power in; on the other 2 leads, probably out, shows around 5 volts. transformer "buzzes" quietly when pump is turned on;
on the timer it says: source 100-240 VAC; contact 5A 200VAC 5A 30 VDC.

so, if i have 4.3 V measured with voltmeter dial on 200AC? transformer?

 

3 floats...ok

lowest is pump off. Prevents the tank from draining below predetermined level.

Next highest is the pump on, which is probably obvious to you by this point.
The upper most float is "High water" which you said works,because it tripped the alarm. This float is independant of the other two.

The on float will not trigger if the off float is engaged (of course this is a safety function of the control box, which may or may not have a way of informing you of an error).

Empty the tank level as you have been doing.
With an "Unbent coat hanger " ..or similar "HOOK" grab the middle float and raise it, Does the pump turn on?

Push the bottom float "DOWN" and retest the middle one, Does the pump turn on?

Further than this , you will need the MFR wiring diagrams for the control box , so you may make appropriate voltage and resistance checks at the appropriate terminals at the control box. Transformers generally dont send out line voltage to electronic components, So 4.3 v really doesnt mean anything, until you know the operating voltage for the electronics.

 

[QUOTE=Unclediezel;1297996]3 floats...ok

The on float will not trigger if the off float is engaged (of course this is a safety function of the control box, which may or may not have a way of informing you of an error).

Empty the tank level as you have been doing.
With an "Unbent coat hanger " ..or similar "HOOK" grab the middle float and raise it, Does the pump turn on?

QUOTE]


nope, it does not rurn on. also, had floats pulled out from the tank completely and had both lower and middle floats up veritcal in my hands, nothing happens. floats rattle awright inside.

 

They are supposed to, I dont think I would be alarmed by the rattling( As opposed to a dead Light bulb...If it rattles , it's no good)

The #'s you posted are for a Timer Module.... Do you have the #'s for the control box itself?

We have to get this right, replacing a control module is a hefty $, as opposed to a defective float....and Usually electronic items are "Non-Returnable"....so Lets diagnose it correctly and replace what needs to be replaced , and save you the expense and hassle.

 

i know they should rattle, that's why i checked on it. some get stuck.

anyways, it's RHOMBUS CONTROL PANEL; SJE CONTROLS on the lid; enclosed industrial control panel, model TD1W914H4D21E; SCHEMATIC # 10081488

here's pics of it







btw, thank you for all the time you dedicate to this.

 

Is this system , by chance, part of a lawn irrigation system?

The Grey water section of your tank, Should not be drained by "Timed " intervals, but rather, the float and level system.

If your lawn irrigation is programmed into this cycle, then the timer doesnt control the actual "Level" in your tank.

 

no, just septic and leach field. i was considering using grey water for backyard irrigation. maybe guy who built the house had it in plans too.
as far as i know, it's "length of pumping" timer, not "when to pump" timer. has ON to OFF settings and nothing of "time of the day" ones. i think it's set for like 2.5 minutes of pumping.

 

Exactly my point......

what if, the tank wasnt drained down in the 2.5 minutes the timer allowed? what happens?-Or should I say ..What is supposed to happen.? Opposing situation, If the tank was empty before the 2.5 minutes?---i dont understand why anyone would want a timer on something that required Variable use, as determined by a float setup

I did notice in your pic, its printed "TIMER OVERRIDE-(OPTIONAL).

 

then it'll slowly fill up. was working fine for 2 yrs since we had pump replaced, no one messed with any settings. we even have one family member less since june. so there's less water going in than it was set for.

my concerns are: - grinding noise was coming out of control panel for several mths; - no lights on timer; - if left alone, tank slowly fills up, takes about 6 days, i know exactly, as i checked on level/pump on saturday, after i spotted where the noise is coming from. lower floats were horisontal in effluent, next friday - alarm's up.
on obsevation, there are no signs of any shortages or burns or lose wires etc in the control panel. fuses are good. which piece in control panel actually controls the pump? there's very few of parts in it, transformer, timer, fuse box, that's about it. mounting plate for timer. i do not see any motherboards or complex stuff like this. as far as i understand, floats come up/sensor trips/signal is sent to relay in control panel/relay trips/ turns power on to pump-timer/pump pumps for 2.5 minutes/ floats go down/pump turns off.

 

Correct...

I just dont understand why the timer function is even there?

Gimme a bit , I'll try to find the diagram with the info you gave me.

 

to prevent pump from running too long? though yes, should be turned on and off by floats.

my MAIN concern is - if i find what can possibly make a grinding noise in the panel, i find the culprit. and it was failry loud one, sounded like blender working. absolutely positively coming out of panel. no smokes, sparks, none of that. just noise. not pump echoing through pipes, as i can't even hear it from the outside when it works with lid closed on the tank.

 

http://www.sjerhombus.com/PDFs/Insta...010434B.TD.pdf

This should be close to what you have and there is a troubleshooting section at the end..

Do you have , (Or can you borrow ) a multiMeter?

Check resistance across the float terminals and compare to the troubleshooter.
The only thing I can see that would make any noise , is either the timer , or the contactor, But the contactor must work correctly , because you can manually turn the pump on...

It may be practical, to consider removing the timer from the circuit completely, Unless of course the floats turn up to be defective...

 

thank you!

let me dig through this.

btw, diagram 3 has timer override float. i think that explains the timer presence, ay? let me pull the timer out and see what happens. i have 3 days off, i can monitor the level easy. it should stay, by itself, with both lower floats roughly horizontal, correct? and if they go submersed, then the system does not kick in and i have to pump manually, correct?

 

Watch the terminal diagram,

removing the timer, without correcting the wiring to accomodate the missing timer may leave the system inoperative...

Correct....

 

[QUOTE=Unclediezel;1298087]http://www.sjerhombus.com/PDFs/Insta...010434B.TD.pdf
Do you have , (Or can you borrow ) a multiMeter?

Check resistance across the float terminals and compare to the troubleshooter.
QUOTE]

i do have multimeter. ok, practically speaking - how do i get to floats wires? are those to be checked in float itself or in the junction box on the tank well?

 

didn't you tell me to remove the timer? it turns on without it manually.

 

correct,

However , if the float signals feed "THRU" the timer, removing it will leave the floats inop... unless you rewire the control to compensate. Either way, you will still have manual control. Just dont expect to pull the timer and have everything be back to normal.

 

ok. i'll leave it in.

once again, how do i get to the float terminals or wires? which one is which? read pdf 3 times, still can't figure it out.

they are in the junction box on the tank well, correct? either terminals 3-4 or terminals 5-6?

 

No---

Theyre in the control box, 1and 2 are high water, 3 and 4 are
override, and 5and 6 are Pump off, and 7and 8 are redundancy, which is the bottom of the tank "Cant go any lower" setting for the pump.

if the alarm is still activated, there should be zero resistance between any of the 4 pairs of wires.

Anything that doesnt match, Then check the junction box at the pump tank.

 

well, here's the aftermath

of course, i should have known better than go into junction box myself but the harm's done

anyways, junction box was half full of water. probably condensate. half of the terminals with caps on them were bent backwards and immersed in water.

anyways, i pulled terminals out of the box, and drilled a hole in the bottom of it. water drained. one of the connections appeared to be lose, so i removed the cap and cleaned it/recapped. everything was done with both control panel and central fuse boards power to septic turned down.
now it does not even pump manually. now i am in deep s..., as it's mid saturday, and everything will be closed for 3 more days. i traced 3 wires that come from pump, double checked on them, unless i'm totally blind and dumb, connections/caps are sound. shouldn't have touched it.
yes, i tried to raise low cutoff float up in case it overrides manual switch, did not help. transformer does not humm anymore like it did before. i can see tip of the pump, and i could pump manually lower than that, so it's not the float override. lord save me from frying that pump again.

i, also, stepped out again and rechecked on all pump wiring in the junction box again. it's all good.
where i had 4.3 V before in the timer, now it shows 10.2V
the black box in the left hand corner, one that looks like transformer and had 112V in and 5V out before, now has 0V out. it used to humm when i turned manual on, now it does nothing.

 

u did turn the power back on didnt you???

the black box in the upper left corner is your contactor control.(Motor relay).....

There should be line voltage-120 or 240 (Ya know..I never thought to ask...Whats the voltage on the pump?) at the contactor, and 0 v is normal coming out because its not energized. ChecK contactor "out" with manual switch engaged.

 

yeah, power was turned back on, and it's a valid question.
it shows 120 on central on/off switch and on the upper terminals of contractor.
it shows zero on the lower terminals of contractor with manual engaged. previously, it showed 5 V on out leads with switch in auto position.
you mentioned before that there are 2 devices that could produce noise in the control panel - timer and contractor. then ruled out contractor as pump still worked manually.
well, now it does not appear to work - no vibration, no humm, zero out. before it hummed and there was palpable vibration while pump worked. i was VERY careful with all wires in junction box, that i know.

i have 5 days to fix it. it'll reach upper float level in 5-6 days.

 

Did you remove anything in the control box? I see 2 fuse holders in the pics. Ensure they're both still good. (Dont "Visual" them...use the resistance function on the meter)
it is possible something got bumped in the Junction box and popped one or both of them.

If your using a digital meter to check voltage, the 5v or 4.3, or 10.2 are what they call ghost voltages, and anything less than 20% of what you expect to see you can treat as ZERO
(Sampling rate, inductance , saturation rate, and a whole slew of other technical stuff that you dont need to know can cause GHOST VOLTAGES)

I wouldnt start to panic just yet.

 

no, i'd have never touched anything in control panel. everything's the way it was OEM. fuses were good, i replaced them anyway, same result. there are no fuses or else in the pump well junction box, just wires spliced together. power was always carefully shut down before any manipulations with junction box wires.

i have gould pump, one in $700 range. i am safely assuming it is 120V, but will pull it out today and double check.

here's my burning question: can i connect that pump directly to the power supply? i have wall outlet close enough to run 120V to it. i can install a switch into the cable if so needed, no problem, it's only 3 wires. all i'm looking for is periodic pumps to keep effluent level low, maybe 1.5-2 minutes, untill i get technician here. i need to buy family about 4-5 days. we are currently on very tight toilets/water curfew. pump tank is large, but i don't want to take any chances.

 

for those who followed this thread or have similar problem:

1. great thanks to unclediesel for his continuous support through almost 2 days!!

2. if you have a sump pump that is decently new and it went bad on you - do not rush to listen to your technician and replace the whole pump. sump pumps have "on" capacitor, just like starters in your cars have it. no need to replace the whole pump, capacitor is replaceable item. takes some time to get to it, as it's inside the motor housing, but it's MUCH less expensive than whole pump. plus, when service company replaces it for you, you just made them a gift, as they will pull capacitor out, replace it, and resell the pump. just like what you buy as starter in shucks or autozone - it's used starter with capacitor or bendix replaced. that's why they charge you the core replacement charge - they sure do want that "broken" starter from you.

3. as of today, my manual control came back to life. so i'll keep pumping manually untill technician will be here, hopefully some time this week. i have no idea what tripped yesterday. it works - i'll live with the hassle for now.

i'll let you all know what was found by technician. my bet is on 2 items: bad timer and bad contactor, which is a fancy name for solenoid that turns power to pump on, as it's the only piece inside the control panel that could produce a buzzing noise heard before.

just fyi: apperantly i have "option 3" installation, which is low float/timer to turn pump on and off for specific amount of time/timer override float, and high-alarm float.

 

ok, they fixed it today. fix took 5 minutes.

1. the system has 3 floats, low, high, and one that guy called redundent float. it's slightly higher up than low float. that float went bad.
2. as the float went bad and because it was wired into the system, it was overriding the timer.
3. as it was not sending full voltage to the contactor, contactor had hard time kicking in, thus "attempting" to start the pump, resulting in buzzing noise.
4. what he did, he simply discontinued the redundant float and rewired the control panel so that low float now operates timer. timer came back to life. that's it, $80 minimum charge for technician call, no parts to replace.

 

I have the same problem in the Seattle area. Can you tell me the name of the company you used to fix the issue?

 

Ummmmm.........Ddbsmc......the thread you replied to is five years old. Not only is it old but Ukrkoz was banned from site for posting violations. We don't even know where he was from.



You might be best served by consulting your local yellow pages for service........unless you are looking for diagnostic help in which case you should start a new thread of your own.