I'll try to keep this concise, but there's quite a bit of info to convey so bear with me. I'm not a plumber, nor do I play one on TV Posting this in both 'Plumbing and Piping' and 'Wells, Sump Pumps, and Septic Sewage Systems' given it plays in both areas.


Issue:
Water pressure inside my house is pretty low, especially with multiple taps running

What I want to do:
I would like to increase the water pressure inside my house, I'm currently entertaining the following and looking for the best
solution with my current setup.

1) 'Tweak' current setup for better results
2) Reconfigure current setup
3) Add secondary pressure pump inside the house after the pressure tank



**********************
1) 'Tweak' current setup for better results
- I live in a rural area, recently replaced my well with a rain harvest water system. Here's the current setup
A) 3 1600 gallon cisterns daisy chained above ground
B) 1" PVC line extends <10 ft to pump, with a check valve and conversion to a 1 1/4" pipe along the way.
C) Craftsman Hydroglass (Model 390-2522 1HP) equipped with a 'Shallow Jet Pump addon' pulls the water and discharges towards house. 40/60 pump currently overclocked to 50/70.
D) 1" discharge line exits top of the pump, runs into a aux 5 gallon pressure tank to eliminate backpressure issues.
E) 1" line continues uphill 30 feet (roughly 12 foot elevation gain), then 90 degree right turn for another 35 feet (horizontal), then 90degree right turn for 5 feet into the garage and pressure tank
F) Armitrol (Model WF140) 44 gallon pressure tank receives intake then directs to hot water heaters / house. Tank has a 40/60 switch, however current pressure readings are 27psi at charge and 26psi at discharge.

- Notes:
A) When the pump runs, it runs for approx 13 seconds before hitting max 70psi and shutting down and cycling again. From understanding this is inefficient and should really be running until the Armitrol pressure tank is completely full
B) Armitrol pressure is very low, however this was the best balance I originally found between the pump pressure switch and Armitrol pressure switch (see next item)
C) Currently either the pump or Armitrol switch is the master (can't remember which one), but I know if I swap them my pressure moves above 80psi on the pump which is well above recommended operating range.

- Questions:
A) Is there a better way to optimize my setup?
B) I've read that longer runs may be better using larger diameter PVC to lessen friction? If so, what sizes and where?

*************************
2) Reconfigure the current setup
A) Move the pump inside the garage and right in front of the pressure tank

- Questions:
A) Would 'pulling' the water be easier than currently 'pushing?
B) Which pressure switch should be the 'master'?
C) Would a larger than 44 gallon pressure tank make a difference?
D) Need to confirm I would need a 'Deep Well' addon to pull water that distance to the pump?
E) Should I run larger lines than the 1" PVC for reduction of friction?

*************************

3) Add secondary pressure pump
- I've seen something on Harbor Freight that is advertised as a secondary pump that sits after the pressure tank and in front of the house lines to boost interior water pressure

Questions:
A) Would this actually increase my pressure for inside the house?
B) With my current setup, I'm still concerned about the pump cycling so frequently and the Armitrol tank having low pressure?




Thanks for the help and ideas, much appreciated.

 

Hi and welcome.

Read through this sticky to make sure your system is doing all it can, and at its most efficient.

The first thing you need to do is stop the pump from cycling. That will destroy the pump very fast.
All the information on how to fix the cycling is in the sticky.

After you read through the sticky post back with any questions that you still have.
There are some sharp people here.


Travis

 

Thanks for the response. I reread the section related to "Pump Cycling" and wanted to add some addtl details I alluded to in my original post (1-B and 1C). Some background first, then how it relates to the pump cycling thread.

If memory serves (not currently at my house) the Water pump is the 'master' pressure switch with the one on the pressure tank bypassed (only one can be the 'master from understanding).

Originally I had the pressure tank as the 'master' running at 40/60. The problem I immediately saw was the pump pressure exceeding 80psi, outside of the operating range.

The constraint then became what the pump could push uphill to the pressure tank w/o exceeding its max psi. I swapped the pump as the 'master', set it to 50/70 and tried again.

However, the pump cycled even more pushing the water into the 40/60 pressure tank. I validated the current air pressure (bladder tank) was 38psi. Upon recommendation I decreased that pressure down to where it is now (approx 25psi) to get the pump to run as long as it does now (13 seconds each cycle) and still provide adequate pressure inside the house.

So that being said, the current low psi in the pressure tank is by design to allow the pump to work as long as it does before hitting 70psi and shutting down.

With that in mind, are there any recommendations on how to address this per my original post? Thanks in advance!

 

A couple comments...

1) You asked is it easier to push or pull water....Push....keep the pump as close to the tank as possible.

2) I'm not sure why you have 2 pressure switches...you only need one...and I would use the one on the tank, and make your adjustments accordingly.

3) Check the pump curve for your pump....make sure that it isn't the problem...that you have enough pump for the water demand you are trying to meet.

4) Larger piping will help with friction, but unless you're trying to move more than about 20 gallons/min (or over extreme distances)....1" piping headloss is minimal.

5) I would not upgrade tank size...I would install a cycle stop valve on the pump discharge (directly on the pump discharge)....

6) I would not add another pump...there is no reason to further complicate things in this very simple system. If you're pump won't / can't provide pressure and flow, upgrade to a larger pump. (Not a craftsman....)

 

Excellent comments, thanks. I dug into some of your comments and have addtl details / questions related to that.

******************************
First, the performance of the current pump vs requirement:
- Referenced the pump operating manual for this model. At a 5ft pumping depth (pump is on same plane as water source / cistern) the performance is 17GPM)
- Referenced the following link for the horsepower requirements calcs (see pages 4-5): http://lubbock.tamu.edu/irrigate/doc...4410-B6011.pdf

Distance from pump to pivot: 70ft (or .7 100ft sections)

Estimated Frcition Loss (http://www.performancepropumps.com/P...ossChart.pdf):
Loss in 1"PVC <100ft Pipe: ~17

Friction Loss In Fittings:
6 standard elbow: 13.5
1 gate valve: .6
2 45 degree: 2.8
Total Fitting Loss: 16.9 ~ 17

Total Friction: 34 *.7 = 23.8

TDH (total dynamic head) = (pumping lift) + (elevation change) + (operating pressure) + (friction losses)
TDH = 0ft + 12ft + 103.95ft (40psi * 2.31ft/psi) + 23.8ft (see friction calc section)
TDH = 139.75ft

whp (water horsepower) = (gpm x TDH (ft)) / 3960
whp = (17 * 139.75) / 3960
whp = .59

bhp (brake horsepower) = whp / pumping plant efficiency
bhp = .59 / .75 (assumed efficiency for calculation)
bhp = .79hp

So the horsepower requirement of .79HP is less than the 1HP of the installed pump.

***************************************

Second, with that in mind some questions:
1) Would you agree with the above calcs that they are correct and my pump is large enough for my setup?
2) Looked into a Cycle Stop Valve.
- Appears to eliminate water hammer, which was the reason I installed the aux 5 gallon tank above the pump. So with this I could remove that aux tank?
- Per my last post, I had the pressure switch master on the pump for over pressure reasons. If I move it back to the pressure tank (and set it up 40/60 as original) would this valve be enough to allow the pump to continuously run but without exceeding its 70psi max?
3) General question on the pump. If it's got more HP than needed from the calcs why would (when the pressure switch was on the pressure tank like originally) it soars above the 70psi max? Shouldn't the pump hover in the safe psi range if it has enough HP? I'm hesitant to move the 'master' back to the pressure tank because of this prior issue.

Thanks agin,
Darin

 

First...I did a little searching about your pump, and all I could find was that 17 gpm is it's maximum. You need to look at it's curve, and how the output drops when pumping higher pressure. It will be no where near 17gpm. You have calculated HP requirements....you know what HP motor you have and need, but you don't know what the capabilites of you pump are.

I didn't look at your friction calcs very much, because I am certain that this is not an issue at all.

A submersible pump will provide much higher flow and pressure capabilites...you may want to look in to that. I believe that Goulds makes a submersible cistern pump that will draw down very close to the bottom of your tank.

Other than elevation difference I'm not sure why you have pressure differences....you should not.

 

You got me thinking this past weekend. If i understand the above, the elevation difference should require a bit of added horsepower but for my relatively simple scenario and a 1HP at the pump it should accomodate that. It sounds like you are saying that outside of the elevation there isn't additional friction that would account for the pump pressure maxing out tripping the shutoff - and the elevation / distance shouldnt really be causing it either....

So I started thinking back as best I could. I replaced almost all of the piping from the tanks to the pump to the pressure tank - EXCEPT the last 5 feet where it comes through the garage wall into the pressure tank. If memory serves (and I can't verify this until Mar 12th when I return home next), but for some reason the original plumber decreased the pipe size down to 1/2"??

I seem to remember a fitting on the elbow when the pipe comes through the wall to downsize it to a 1/2" pipe which continues into the pressure tank. Given it was originally there and the short length of the run I may have simply discounted it - but now you make me question if that is part of the issue.

In reading the troubleshooting guide for my pump for 'cycling' it mentioned excessive 'ofset piping'. When I read the definition of offset piping being lengths of smaller diameter piping it rang a bell in my mind, to that 5 ft run to the tank.

Do you think that run of smaller piping may be the issue? The pump is having to push too hard to get through the smaller diameter pipe? Maybe I should try to ensure its a 1"pipe all the way to the pressure tank if that is indeed the case?

Thanks.

 

There would be significant head loss if you have a section of 1/2" pipe in the line directly from the well. I would get rid of that.....that could explain some of your issues.

 

It only takes 13 seconds for the well to charge a relatively large pressure tank from 25 psi up to 70 psi?, even with the 1/2 line?

Conversely, how quickly does it take for the 70 to drop to 25 when water is being used? -and what is all being run at any one given time?

 

Thanks for helping get me down that path, I'll try the following when I get home:
1) Replace the smaller diameter section of piping in the garage with the standard 1" PVC
2) Repressurize the pressure tank back to the factory standard 38psi
3) Initially leave the pump as having the master pressure switch (again, pressure tank switch is bypassed), I can always play around with swapping the master to the pressure tank if that doesn't work for some reason.

I'll give this a go when I return home Mar 12th - hopefully this will fix my issue!

 

Well that's the issue, is that it doesn't simply recharge it all the way when the pump runs. It recharges until the pump pressure maxes out (about 13 seconds), and then shortly thereafter when the pump pressure drops down to 40 it starts up again.

As an example, if I turned the pump off and then completely drained the pressure tank, this is what would happen when I flipped the switch back on. Pump would run 13 seconds pushing water into the tank and shut off (but the pressure tank wouldn't be full). So it would start up again and continue to cycle on and off until it 'filled' the tank to the current 'full' capacity.

So right now, from insights with VAWellGuy, it appears the 'spiking' of the pressure that trips my pump off is not because the tank is full but rather because the last 5 feet of piping drops from 1"PVC to 1/2" line. And don't ask me why the original plumber did it - I could regale you for hours with stupid things done by the contractors when they built my house....

 

Huh. So when this is going on - does the pressure switch points actually open when the pump cuts off?, or is some backpressure (due to line restriction) to the well pump shutting down the well pump with the pressure points still closed?

 

I'll have to please ignorance on this one, sorry. I know enough about plumbing to get myself into trouble.... Beer 4U2 If you can translate that into terms I might understand I can try to give you some addtl details.. Thanks

 

Okay -those pressure switches you have......inside them are contact points with electrical wires going to them. 240 volts worth. When the contact points come together inside, it allows the current to go to the well pump.

What I am trying to find out is - when you have this cycle issue you are having where it only tries to progress from 25# to 70#, only in increments at a time, I want to know if the power is being shut off at those contact points(the points would open, killing power to the pump, and you can see if they are apart from each other) - or, if the points are remaining closed which then would indicate that if the pump stopped pumping(when it should be running), that perhaps the pump itself is shutting down. Or, maybe the contact points are really bad and not really making good connection.

There is one other thing also. It might be possible that when you think the well stops and/or shuts off (when it is still calling for pressure) that for some reason, the pump cavitates for a while until it say reprimes and starts pushing water out again, or the gauge is goofy.

I can't remember if you ever said if you listened to see if the pump shuts off when the cycle quits on it's way up to 70.

 

It's a bi confusing, I'll try to recap / summarize what I know / see.

- Pump is 40/60 but overclocked to 50/70
- Pump has the 'active' pressure switch
- Pressure tank is 40/60 capable, however..
- Pressure tank pressure switch is bypassed
- Pressure tank internal pressure has been adjusted down from 38psi to mid 20's (for reasons stated below)


Sitting at the pump, I see the 'trigger' for more water and it starts up. Pressure starts to rise and after about 13 seconds it hits the 70psi mark. Pump shuts down. Pressure on at the pump decreases until it hits low threshold and pump kicks on again. Cycle continues until minimum requirement is met at the pressure tank.

Can't directly answer the question about the contact points, but hopefully the above indirectly answers them or gives additional insight. Thanks

 

Ahhh. So it DOES go to 70 psi in one cycle. What size tank(s) are being compressed, to do that, again? 13 seconds if the tanks are large enough, does not seem like an abnormal time, especially if you are running it all the way to 70, where the gpm curve may be flattening out. I was of the opinion it took like 6 tries to make it all the way there. Ohhh. So then for no reason at all, the pressure drops back down to 25? Is that it?

If so, then it sounds more like you simply have a check valve leak or well pipe leak, more than any influence of a restricted/too small well pipe line -IMO. So again, the issue is not with the ability of the well to pump up into the tank? -but rather in how it(pressure) bleeds back down?, and then wants to cycle all over again?

What is still odd in all this though, is IF it bleeds down, then I am wondering what casues it to finally hold pressure to finally stop that cycling.??? A recent while back, pressure waves were discussed here, regarding improper location of the pressure switch in regard to the tank. But in your case, you wouldd not think with as lengthy of a 13 second charge time, that a pressure wave could cause the gauge to bounce to 70 and then drop, since it takes 13 seconds to climb up there.

How many times of the pump running the pressure up to 70, and then dropping back down to 25, does it repeat, until it finally holds at 70?...or at some position above 25 where it no longer has to 'cut-in'(cycle) again.

And what is the diameter of the pipe, not that goes through the wall(1/2"), but as it enters the tanks?

Does the gauge steadily climb from 25 to 70 in those first 13 seconds? It doesn't jump from 25 to say 55 in 1 second, and then take 12 more seconds to go from 55 to 70, does it? Because something like that could indicate a water logged condition AND the wellpump having a hard time compressing to 70. Then with the slightest water loss somewhere, the pressure could suddenly drop again. Say if a toilet has even a slight leak, and the level in the tank came down. Then your symptoms would make perfect sense as to how the cycling finally stops(say after 6 attempts to reach 70), because it would stop when the toilet tank filled all the way back up!

 

I really think that the restriction is the problem. Bypass the pressure switch on the pump....

Like Ecman51 just said....we've had recent posts about pressure waves...and I believe the 1/2" line is restricing flow and causing a wave. Use the pressure switch on your tank setup.....with it's current 40/60 setup. See what happens to the short cycling....I think it will go away. You still may not be able to get enough water through the 1/2" and to the tank to keep up with peak demand....

 

Issue is resolved!!! Thanks so much for the help guys, honestly could not have done it without the thoughts / ideas brought up here. For those interested, I'll summarize what I found to be the issue and how its setup and working now:

What the issue turned out to be (see pics here):
So as stated before, I had replaced the entire plumbing setup except for the last 5 feet of piping in front of the pressure tank where it came through the garage wall. Note that as soon as it comes in it restricts it from a 1" pipe to a 1/2". Why? No idea... And you may also notice the gray cylinder in the line that I was never really sure what it was, and therein lay the bigger issue.

Thinking back, I remember my plumber saying something about adding an 'aerator' to the line to try to resolve the filtering issue. I'm guessing that's what this is. Looking in the front and the rear you can see that the already restricted water flow was then pushed through even smaller holes prior to entering the pressure tank. This had to go!

I also found out that my pressure gauge at the tank was fouled (so the 28psi readinges I had before were junk). Replaced that too.


How it's running now:
- Repressurized the pressure tank back up to 38psi as recommended
- Flipped the pump on and bled the air
- Pump now kicks on at 38psi on the pressure tank
- Pump shouts off at 60psi on the pressure tank (perfect!)
- Pump will run for an extended period of time and as long as needed now (also perfect!)
- I did leave the pressure switch active at the pump and not the pressure tank (bypassed there). Did that for two reasons a) it's working as I want it to with the above changes (pump isnt easily accessible) and b) I'd rather have the pump switch off and not burn out in case of an issue in the future (as I had one do before on a bad initial config).

So again, thanks so much, your help was invaluable!