here's the issue:
1. 3 chamber septic tank with goulds 1/2 hp effluent pump; used to be 3 float system, but one float was discontinued due to continuous problems in the control box. currently with low and high floats.
2. low float was replaced last year; pump was replaced 3 years ago, determined bad by septic people(was only about 5 yo originally).
3. last year, control box started making machine gun noise, getting progressively louder; septic guy told me it is sign of float going bad, that's when i had float replaced and 1 float discontinued. i think, it was one in the middle, the discontinued one. problem went away.

this year:
1. about 3 mths ago, i have noticed loud click and dimmed lights same time; apparently, that was when pump turned on. turning pump from the switch in the box produces none of this issue, runs nice and easy
2. eventually, click became a rapid clicking noise, getting louder and louder; lights will dim same time.
3. several days ago, when this happened, i ran out, popped the control box open, and found that it's coming from contactor; replaced contactor; it was all good for a day, yesterday i heard single not so loud click again. control box is on the living room wall, outside.
4. i had pump out and floats out wednesday night. just flushed pump; upper float has cracked casing, right where cable goes in; float, discontinued last year, was left attached to the float pole, was the same way, crack in the same place. i removed discontinued one completely, just to clear all that cables mess. only 2 floats now, upper with housing crack.
5. fluid level appears to be very low. it is at lower pump height third, with low float laying horizontal in the fluid.

here's my questions:

1. isn't fluid level supposed to be higher, with pump submersed? i can slide the float up on the pole. i remember fluid being at the "pump covered" level. maybe float slid down..
2. one float, with crack, of course needs to be replaced. is mechanical better than mercury? i am TIRED of fussing with septic, i have issues with it twice a year. should not be that way.
3. how can i check low float, replaced last year, if it's still good? has no mechanical signs of damage and appears to be working, as fluid is pumped out. i have electrical tester.
4. what can be causing that click in contactor, and over draw of current, dimming lights? i am hoping it's not the damn pump again, for $800 should be working better.

 

1. I usually set the stop float so the pump is submerged if possible. These sensor floats operate differently than a regular pump float in that they are "on" at just a little above horizontal and "off" a little below horizontal. A typical pump float is on/off at about 45degree angle up and down.

2. I like a mercury switch but they are being outlawed in alot of places. We can't buy them anymore.

3. You really should have all 3 floats in the system. Without the top float you have no alarm. I would just replace all 3 to be safe.

4.If the start float is bad it could be causing the contactor to chatter. I've seen cracked floats like that before. Sometimes they fill up with water. Water and electric are not a good mix. I would get some good floats in there and see what you have then.

 

did some reading..

so, on float is busted with a crack and off float appears to be positioned too low? and on float is shortening the system and overloading it?

 

thank you.

will do. though goulds is oil filled, i feel it's a good idea to have it submersed for additional cooling.

what is the good brand of floats? they are not cheap to buy locally, around $70 all the way into $200. if they last only few years... and it does not appear electrical breakdown, but physical casing breakage.

ok, here's my problem with 3rd float. i understand the reason for it to be there. have no problem plugging it in.
I CAN NOT FIGURE WHERE IT HAS TO BE CONNECTED TO IN THE ELECTRICAL BOX. one inside the tank. reckon, will have to call in a tech to have that one installed.
i can buy either mech or merc ones, they have them here.

also, is there any way to quick fix broken one to make it last for a week or 2? reason being, i am not really into replacing floats with the same ones, that will crack again in year or 2. so, i can get a good one off internet, but will hate for the cracked one to bust contactor in between again. as now it all makes sense: cracked on float shotens system, causes high draw - and that busts contactor eventually, overloading it. hence the progressively worsening noise.
and i do not have much choices in floats in the supply store.

 

Can you post a pic of inside of the control panel? The float you have looks like an SJE Rhombus mechanical float 15 or 20 pmd1wp, is that correct. That switch will work with a control panel but is really not the correct type. You want a narrow angle switch like this. If you shake that float does it sound like there is water in it. If so I wouldn't use it.

Are the on and off floats connected together, or were all the floats individual? They do make a double float system that has both floats connected together and come together in one wire. Not sure what you have.



http://www.sjerhombus.com/PDFs/Catalog/1011935K.SF.pdf

 

thank you.

there are NO trademarks or whatever, only us pat # on the float.

i did some online shopping and, actually, liked the idea of the narrow angle switch. casing should not be breaking as easily in it. then i saw your post, you simply confirmed it.

upper, on float, doubles as alarm float when in fully vertical position.

i have moved off float 2 inches up on the mast.

here's pics:

also, i will not put cover back on the electric box. with cover, it fills with water halfway.

 

all floats were connected individually.
when i was replacing bad float last year, my septic guy told me, over the phone, to connect "double", how should i explain it, 2 floats to same wire coming out of the control box? makes any sense? so that i did not have to figure out which one is on and which one is alarm? prolly that's why on float doubles as alarm float in fully up position now.
honestly, i do not remember, why i could not figure out how to connect replacement float. either all the wires look the same, or something else. but whatever i did, it worked for around a year well.
float that was discontinued last year was one in the middle of the mast, so it should have been on float. that's the one on the pic, with crack.

top float has crack in the neck. i think, it's mechanical, sounds and feels like ball rolling inside. i could not tell if it has water inside.
you can see where the discontinued float was attached to the mast, clamp is clearly seen.

 

Having that junction box inside the pit is something we see alot but is not the best idea. Why is it filling up with water?
The on float should not be combined with the alarm as it would sound the alarm every time the pump runs.

Can you get a close up of the terminal strip on the lower right and the panel model number off the panel door?

 

That looks like a timed dose panel. Thats completely different than what I though you had. I may be able to shed some light with a model number but don't see these alot. I think you may have to stick with a wide angle switch for this type of panel. Here is some info on how it works.




http://www.septicplus.com/pressuremound.htm

 

well, somehow it does not sound alarm. i had it in my hand and tipped it all the way vertical then alarm sounded. is it possible that lower float, actually, runs as on and off one? and alarm one is what it is, alarm. but it's the top one that has crack - and sounds alarm.

i think, junction box fills with condensate. it's pacific northwest. humid.

did i mention that photobucket sucks?

 

yes, this is exactly what i had:

The pump is controlled by a series of liquid level float switches that are wired into a time-dose control panel. Usually, there are either two, three, or four floats installed in the pump tank. The lowest float (near the bottom of the tank) is the "redundant off" float. Its purpose is to shut the pump off in the event the pump continues to pump due to electrical problems, other float problems, or if the control panel is set in the "manual" or "hand" position and left there. When this float is in the down position (if wired correctly) it will shut the pump off. The second float (higher up in the pump tank) is the "timer-on/off" float. Its basic function is to tell the timer in the control panel that there is or is not enough liquid in the tank to pump. When this float is in the up position or "activated", the timer, set at specific intervals will allow the pump to activate and dose (transfer liquid) to the drain field. The highest float in the system is a high level alarm. In the event that there is a pump problem, float problem, drain field problem, etc., the liquid level in the pump tank may rise to a higher than normal level activating this float. The float will signal the control panel to go in alarm mode which then the control panel will have a audible and visual alarm present.

so, basically, pump is turned on and off with timer, not floats? what is causing the racket in contactor then? also, did i do right moving OFF float up a bit? every time i had lid off the tank, pump was not covered by fluid.

"timer on-off" float was then one that was discontinued. but i saw light(green) on time, so timer is working.

wide angle switch for this type of panel which is?

 

I think you did right by moving the off float up a bit because this is what shuts the pump off. The redundant off has been jumped in your panel so that is not an issue. I guess when there is enough fluid in the tank for the on/off float to be activated it triggers the timer and pumps either the alloted time or until the switch gets low enough to shut it off.

I'm not sure what the third float in your system was. It could have been a timer override or a redundant off. I think when one of the switches failed they used one of the good ones, as the system can be run with only two switches. One is connected to the low level cutout (timer on/off) and a high water alarm. If the damaged switch is the upper one, that shouldn' have any effect on the running of the system.

It looks as though you can configure this panel to run with as many as four floats. Bottom would be a redundant or safety off to insure the pump shuts off. 2nd up would be the timer on/off. Third from the bottom could be a timer override in case of a bad on/off float it would still turn the pump on. Top would be the high water. Not sure how they had yours set up.

If the lower switch activates the timer and that switch is good maybe the contacts in the timer are going bad. Thats a guess though, not alot of experience with these systems.

a wide angle switch is what you have now. They can be had in a mecury version also.

If you contact SJE Rhombus they could tell you what kind of switch you should use for sure. Very helpful people but you would need the panel model number.

 

thank you. great insight and help.

for now, as it's most obvious, i shall simply replace the upper float, as it is obviously damaged.
i really like idea of that narrow angle switch, due to the fact that TWO floats i had cracked in the same place. that's a big warning sign. that's what they sell in the store.
i'll find out tomorrow if they have narrow angle floats. they do have both merc and mech ones, i know that. if not, i'll have one ordered off internet.

i know 100% guy who worked on my septic 2 yrs ago jumped something in the control box.
i am not that smart electrically, though, to re-configure back to 3 floats. mainly, because of the crammed wires. there's no telling what's what. reckon, i could use a battery and a 12V light or something, to buzz wires through and mark them.
as of now, my main goal is to rid of that overload in the system, and, following Okham's blade principle, cracked float is the culprit. i'd hate for it to toast another contactor.

i'll follow in few days. will be at supplies store tomorrow. should take no more than 10 mins to replace float, as i need simply to follow wires. if it works, next year or, maybe later now, i'll replace that junction box with bigger one. it is very hard to do anything in it.

btw, where's filter? i know i have one, it's nylon mesh tube. i cleaned it twice before, shoot me, can't find it again. i have 2 more lids covered with step stones. primary and 2ry tanks. 3rd is for pump, you saw it on the pick. and a flow check pipe, sticking out. can't find the filter!! wife re-arranged flowerbed around lids/septic, i am afraid she covered it with dirt.

 

oh my! i finally remembered.

bottom float turns timer on. timer has built in delay, takes about a minute for for pump to kick in.
pump pumps, float goes down, pump turns off.
middle float was redundant "on" float just in case.
top float is what it is supposed to be - alarm only. and i understand now why it should have no influence on the system - as it is not even supposed to be immersed. i think, water got in just like in the junction box - condensate in the well.

so, what i will do, is i will buy a new float, replace THE BOTTOM ONE for the sake of it function, with the new one, and use bottom one to replace cracked top one.

i was cooking my food, and thinking about all this - and boom, it came back upon me! i recalled sitting next to septic, with bottom float in my hand, waiting for pump to kick in... i'm slow, but get me going on something - it will come back!

 

Those junction boxes are suppose to be sealed but we always try to put them outside of the pit if possible. Just make sure and seal the hole where the wires go through the pit to keep moisture out of the j-box.

You will probably want to stick with a wide angle switch for the bottom as a narrow angle might give you too short of a cycle. Sorry for the confusion as I didn't know what kind of system you had. We still carry wide angles in mercury but when they are gone that's it.

They probably did have a timer override switch for the middle float but just eliminated it when one went bad. Not a bad idea to have that feature though in case the on/off float goes bad. Problem is if that switch went bad you probably wouldn't know about it because the override would take over. The solution would be to put the override switch above the alarm. That way the alarm would sound to let you know somethings wrong and the override switch would still turn the pump on.

 

hey, thanks, buddy.

i did not forget about you, was simply at work.
it all appears to be working well so far. fluid level is a bit higher, as expected, pump is covered.
i went to supply store today and of course, they admitted that "those he has do crack, so give a junior". apparently, one of there oldtimers is using a specific float called junior. $52. it's merc one. kind of looks like a hybrid between the wide angle and narrow angle one.
i'll stick to my original plan. replace on float with a new one and trade alarm float, that is cracked, for current on float.
like i said, i am too afraid to mess with connections. it works - don't fix it if it ain't brok.
pumpguy, thank you much for all your time and advice. very valued

 

The SJE Rhombus Jr. is a good switch. It's not a hybrid though. It's a wide angle mecury switch.The difference between wide and narrow angle is just the point where it turns on and off. Wide is on at about 45 degrees up and off at about 45 degrees down. Narrow angle is on at a little above horizontal and off a little below horizontal. They both achieve the same thing just with a different range of motion. I use the Jr's in my septic pump setup. They have outlawed them by us now so I have to stock up on a few while we still have them.

Those should work good for you at either top or bottom with your setup.

 

yes, found the hard way. junior trips alarm just slightly off horizontal.

well, i am about to find out if it all still works or not.
i replaced floats as planned.

i can turn pump with manul switch. i was sitting there for 6 minutes, holding junior up - pump will not kick in.
so, i reversed floats - wide angle one is back down, as on float, and junior is now as alarm float.
alarm works fine.
held float that was - and now is again - at the bottom for another 6 minutes. pump will not start. manual switch - no problem, starts right away.

so, i have no idea. light on the timer was up. i know there's delay between when on float sends signal to the control box and pump turns on. just don't remeber how much.

i just put it all back in. tired. i'll check on fluid level in few hrs. if the bottom float is sunk, then something happened in control box. will call tech in and pump manually, i had this done for 10 days once, waiting for tech to show up. 4-5 pumps in the morning, 4-5 in the afternoon, worked fine.

 

You may have this, but here is some info on setting the timer and how it works. The green arrow tells you the off or delay time I believe. Once the off float has been activated I think you have to wait the number of minutes the green arrow is set to for before the pump will turn on again. I can't read the setting in the photo.





http://www.sjerhombus.com/pdfs/insta...010434D.TD.pdf

 

that pdf is, actually, right on for what i have.

my question is - i have no idea if the ON light on the timer should be on continuously or only when the timer is on.
i have not seen it up ever since i posted yesterday.
so, i do not know if it's a bad timer - or there's no power supply to the timer base - or it's supposed to be that way. 2 fuses are good.

i checked fluid level 6 am, float was still down in "off" position. but i have 3 chamber tank, and we do not use much of water in the afternoon. mornings is when it pours into the tank.
so far, i have family on frugal water use, until i solve the mystery.

 

I would call Rhombus at that 800 number in the PDF and ask your question. I have to call them once and awhile for different reasons and they are usually very helpful.

 

got it solved.
spoke with my septic guy, bless his heart. what a good sport! he helped me so much over the phone!!
he said, stop freaking. that timer can take up to few hrs to kick pump in. light comes up only when it's on an actual cycle. so, if it's on on cycle, ON window will lit, if it's on OFF cycle, OFF window will. if it's dormant, with float down below the ON level - no lights.
so, most likely, like he said, "it's doing its job behind your back".
btw, i found why i had overload every time ON float kicked in. when i was replacing floats yesterday, white wire in the cable was half way cut through. basically, there was a gap, with all the good issues following - gap spark and overload. i fixed that.
he, also, said not to use Junior float as ON float. per Keith, it has very short trip range, is very sensitive, and will bust control box with continuous bursts of ON/OFF signals. he said, it's good for alarm, but that's about it. so, good luck in bad luck, it is good i moved it off the ON position and installed as ALARM float.
that's about it. i'll just let it run from now on.

thank you for your continuous support.