New Replacment of pump, and all works on packer 2" deep well.


  #1  
Old 03-16-11, 09:55 PM
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New Replacment of pump, and all works on packer 2" deep well.

First I'd like to thank all the water well experts for the wealth of information in the many hundreds of threads I've read over the past Month that I have been with out running water, had to lug water in gallon jugs.
I am having to replace my burned up water Ace pump and motor, and could not find out why it burned up on me unless it developed an air leak in the suction pipe down in the well, or around the rubber seal that seals the well casing Packer adapter. I never found any leaks.
When I pulled the 1" pvc drop pipe out of the well (and it did not come easy) the jet assy came out with a lot of brown rusty goo with it, and also did not have a filter screen below the foot valve.
When I pulled the packer adapter off the top of the well head casing the outside of the casing about 3/8 inch down where the rubber gasket fits and seals the adapter to the well head had some rough grooves about 3 eights inches wide right where the adapter seal fits, so I suspicion it may have been getting air there for a long time because the system never has gotten over 30 psi and I have been using the well for 8 years and replaced the pump and motor twice, and the 42 gal bladder tank I have now is only about 1 year old. The pressure switch was always a 20/40 and it never would reach 40 no matter what. I always had to adjust it to cut off at 28, because it would never pump up above 30 psi and I replaced pressure gauges many times, so they all could'nt be wrong.
The air in the bladder was always adjusted at 18 psi 2psi below cut on pressure, I always checked it with 3 different testers to make sure it was correct.

The pump and motor I will now replace it with is a Gould Vj05 1/2
HP and will replace the horizontal well head adapter with a new vertical well head adapter.
I have cut below the rough grooves to smooth pipe, of the top of the well casing and cut it square, because it was not cut square by who ever installed the packer adapter on the well head before I inherited it by no means, and will replace the drop pipe which was 1" pvc with
1-1/4" pvc, which goulds instruction manual that comes with the pump and the Packer jet assembly, foot valve, and filter screen. that is reccomended for this pump and my well depth.

It's a 2" pvc well. static water level was at 40' and depth of well is 75'.
The previous jet assembly was only down to the 44 and one half Foot level, and the static water level was 40' so that could be a reason the pump and motor burned up also, only 4 and 1/2 feet of water and only 2 inch casing.
I am thinking of going down to about 55' so that will keep my jet assembly 20' off the bottom of the well and also 15 feet deeper than previous jet assy, and should be much safer that it should not run out of water and burn up another pump, if that was what actually happened.

My concern is the 1-1/4 inch piping going into the 2 inch casing, the couplings doesn't have much clearance inside the 2 inch casing, and I will have 3 couplings down in the casing. The 1-1/4" sch 80 screw piping comes in 20 foot lengths and I have sanded the outside of the couplings down to a slick finish and have gained a little more than 1/16" clearance all around the coupling fitting inside the 2" casing, and do not want to take the couplings down so much as to compromise the strength of the threads inside couplings so as to crack or split them when installing.
My question is does anyone know where or how to get the correct specs for the outside diminsions of the threaded female bell couplings that will correctly fit 1-1/4" sch 80 piping for a Packer 2" well casing that will not endanger getting the walls of the coupling too thin, yet will give enough clearance between the well casing to properly pass the correct amount of water so as not to starve the jet assembly?
The 1-1/4 piping is sch 80 threaded 20' lengths, bell threaded female coupling on one end and male threaded on the other end.
Thanks for any advice, this has been quite an experience, and I'm beginning to dislike Packer systems very much.
 
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Old 03-19-11, 09:57 AM
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That Goulds is a good choice, by chance what did you give for it? Last one I priced was more than a regular 1-HP 2 stage Goulds SJ-10, which is the standard jet pumps in these parts.

I have probably more experience than most in these parts on jet pumps with packer jets so I will try to answer your questions.

First off, water ace = junk. 2nd, the reason it would not pump is probably because there was trash in the jet. You need to double check your jet assembly, there should be a nozzle and venturi that you should double check to make sure are free of debris. Also, your jet needs to match up with your pump and water level information. The correct size nozzle/venturi should be used for maxiumum pump efficiency.

The part where the casing was not cut straight and had "notches" in it probably made no difference. That part of the well always stays under pressure, even while the pump is operating. It is the part that drives the jet.

You have just ran into one of the pardadoxes of 2" wells and deep well jet pumps. All jets (that I know of ) use 1-1/4" threads as do the casing adapters. They were set-up this way so they could be used with 1-1/4 galv. pipe with thin collars (turned collars). So when using PVC you either need to use thin PVC collars (not advised ) or use 1" belled PVC with adapters on the end to attach to the jet/well head.

I much prefer the 1" belled PVC. I have not used sch 80 screwed PVC on a jet pump. I'm not sure if you can get turned PVC collars however you might be able to get thin galv. collars, but I strongly suggest not using any galv. or cast-iron in the well. If you jet is not brass you need to get one. Do not use any nipples or other galv. parts in the well unless you can't avoid it.

I use a special adapter, made locally here in Houston, that adapts 1" pvc to 1-1/4" threads called an SRA, or Special Reducing Adapter. Basically it's a really thick sch PVC part that has a part for the PVC to glue into and then adapts to either Male (for the casing adapter ) or female (for the jet ) threads. Glue your jet-line in one piece with the jet attached to the female SRA on the bottom, leave the top SRA glued on but leave the casing adapter off. Install the jet line in one piece, clamp it near the end, and then screw on your casing adapter.

1" PVC will work fine for what you're doing and you'll be much happier with the results. I have worked on and installed thousands of these set-ups, if you need any more help I'll be glad to help. Good luck.
 
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Old 03-23-11, 10:41 AM
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Well I was hoping the OP would update this thread....
 
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Old 03-23-11, 07:21 PM
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Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
It is nice when they do.
Well you can look at it this way.
If they don't post back, they must have got there answer to there problem.
 
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Old 03-23-11, 08:37 PM
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Update on my packer well system.

Thanks for the reply Wellman, you are right about the steel couplings and not to use any steel or galvanized fittings in the well piping. The well head adapter is iron, and it supplies enough rust so I don't want to add any more for sure, wish they would make them of brass.
The Goulds vertical pump cost 590.00 from a local dealer a bit pricey I think for a one half HP pump.

After buying and delivery of 3 20' lengths of 1-1/4" sch 80 threaded PVC, I then sanded all 3 bell couplings down on the outside of the bell couplings to get clearance for the drive water supply, they were what I thought thin for PVC threaded couplings and I believe cemented couplings might be safer, so I called my supplier and asked if he would swap the 1-1/4" PVC
pipe for 3 20' length 1" PVC and he agreed even though I had sanded down the couplings on all 3 pipe.

The 1" PVC couplings would give much more clearance in the well casing than I could ever get from the 1-1/4" pipe and like you say would work fine for the depth of my well.

What really had me screwed from the beginning was what I thought for sure was the depth of the well, I measured it twice, 1st when I pulled up the well pipe, and a few days later before I put back new pipe and new brass packer assembly, leathers, nozzle, jet, foot valve and SS strainer down the well.
The 2" well casing I thought went down to about 75' but when I tried to put 54' down the well it hit what felt like a concrete slab or rock at 45' 7" which I then thought the packer assembly must have come off and jammed tight in the well at the same place the old packer assembly sat in the pipe for more than 9 + years, but I called my supplier and told him my thoughts, and he informed me a lot of Well Drillers in the area would put down a well casing to a depth and drill on down another 34' or more with a smaller drill and dia. pipe, which he called a tail pipe.

What I have seen as a tail pipe is not a part of the well casing but an extended pipe from the Packer jet assembly with foot valve and strainer on the end, not an extended pipe from the bottom of the well casing to a smaller Diameter pipe added to the bottom of well casing.
I re-measured my well depth using larger dia washers as weights and sure enough the larger diameter weights that would be a little big to fit down a 1-1/2" pipe stopped at 45' 7" . I then put back on my measuring line smaller washers that would go down a 1-1/2" pipe and it went down to 74' 6" before hitting bottom.

Not knowing their practise of adding a smaller dia. pipe to the bottom of the well casing caused me to have to pull my piping more times that it should normally have if I had known they used this kind of system. Looks like it would have been just as easy to continue on down with 2" casing as stopping then changing drills and going to 1-1/2" on down another 34'. Maybe it cost less I don't know.

My problem I am having now is the pump refuses to prime and I suspect it may be the leathers are not sealing properly. The assembly went down way too easy, and after 3 days trying to prime I re- pulled it up to check to be sure everything was still attached and not broken off, and it pulled up very easily by hand. I really thought as hard as the old one was to pull out the new packer assembly had surely broken off. I thought the old one being so hard to pull out would break at every pull, which pulled very hard every inch all the way to the very end with a come-a-long.

I will let lt sit for a week and see if the leathers will soak enough to seal it and try to prime it every day, don't know what it may be unless it may be the packer jet assembly may not be sealed, I didn't use any teflon thread seal on the bottom jet assembly but made sure it was tight.
The motor has a yellow sticker close to where the pressure switch is wired in that reads wired for 115 volts which I have wired to the pump, so if it is truely set for 115 volts it should be turning the correct RPM's. I took the cover off the motor to see if the switch was set on 115 or 230 and cannot tell because where the switch is supposed to slide to the right for 230 and to the left for 115 does not slide and is not like the diagram in the manual, and does not have a switch that slides. The manual also says above the schematics that, Pumps are Pre-wired by HP: *1/2 HP wired for 115 volts, * 3/4 HP thru 1-1/2 HP and larger wired for 230 volts.
 
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Old 03-23-11, 09:27 PM
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just fyi,

not uncommon for a weight on a string to go deeper than you can push a jet. casing depth and well depth are 2 different things. not sure how things work in your area, but they could have used a smaller bit to drill out the well. when i use to put in 2" wells, i always drilled them out with a tad smaller bit (1 1/2"-1 7/8"), just so no one could ever shove a jet or something beyond the casing.

how much drop pipe was in the well originally?

what is the static water level in the well?
 
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Old 03-24-11, 10:40 AM
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I have been so busy working on this well I just haven't had time to keep this post properly updated, sorry about that, will try to keep better updates.

Originally the old piping from the top of well casing to the bottom of the foot valve was
44' 6" of 1" PVC pipe. That put the bottom of the original foot valve at only 1' 1" off the bottom of the 2" well. The measurement from top of 2" well casing to bottom of the 2" well casing was only 45' 7". The static water level at that time was only at 40'.
The static water now measures 34' from the top of the 2" well casing.

The added smaller diameter drilled depth was just over 34'.
Do well drillers cement the added smaller pipe to the end of original 2" well casing or just drill the hole and push the pipe in it till the end reaches the bottom of the 2" casing? If they drill just an added hole 34' deep and put no pipe in it, I would think it would very quickly fill back in.
 
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Old 03-24-11, 12:20 PM
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Your leathers have been ruined from the up/down motion. I never re-use leathers, even if they are brand-new. If I pull the jet for any reason, I replace the leathers. The fact that the pipe is coming up very easily is a dead-give away. If the leathers are good, the pipe should "push back", like a cylinder.

How did you go from the 1-1/4 jet and well head to the 1" PVC? Did you use a special adapter?

I would pull the jet-line out, replace the leathers, and set it a few feet above the bottom of the 2".

BTW: That is a pretty steep price for a 1/2 HP vertical pump. Those V series pumps are supposed to be about pumping volume, I have heard. Too late now but I think you could have gotten a 1-HP multi-stage pump for about the same price. I don't see too many of them, the last one I had I checked the price and it was more expensive than the 1-HP 2 stage. I'm not really sure what their niche is.
 
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Old 03-24-11, 06:44 PM
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I did use a special adapter on the jet assembly that supplier had in stock esp for the Packer system that screwed on the jet assembly and the 1" drop pipe cemented into it, which the 1" pipe slid into it rather loosley which had me worried that the jet assembly may had fallen off the drop pipe while dropping it down, but it didn't and was still cemented on the drop pipe when pulled back up. I was worried I had lost my entire jet assembly as loosely as the leathers had not held the pipe from allowing me to turn the well-head adapter on top so freely in any direction I would choose and very easily with no restistance what-so-ever after the jet assembly was set down to 43', so that should be an indication that the brand new never used leathers dropped down the well the very first time were not sealing the system as supposed to do.
Is that a fair assumption?

The new jet assembly went down way too easily the very first time I dropped it down the well, and that also had me concerned about it ever sealing properly, I was on the bottom at the top of well casing holding it from going down too fast, and my son was above me on top feeding the pipe down and I was having a hard time holding it from going down too fast, my son said he was not pushing down against me but was only allowing gravity to take it down, but I was having a hard time holding it from going down too fast, and believe it should not have gone down as fast as it wanted to go.

The original piping assembly I pulled up every inch all the way to the very top with a come-a-long pulled very, very, very extremely hard, I was afraid I would break the pipe every inch of the way up, and could never twist the adapter head in any direction from bottom to top.

Maybe I should pull the system and reinstall the old original leathers that has been in use 9 + probably 9 years older??? ha, ha.

The new leathers that came with and installed on the new jet assembly looked very good, and perfect, but I really believe the new leathers that came already fitted to the jet assembly were probably too small in diameter, because I soaked them in warm water for more than 24 hrs before putting the assembly down in the well, and the assembly slid down the well what I thought was very very much too easily, in fact I believe if I had not held them from free falling they would have fallen too fast and damaged the filter screen when they hit the bottom of the well.

So does that sound like my whole problem has been the leathers not expanding enough to properly seal my jet drive line that should feed my suction line and prime my pump to begin pumping properly?

And also if you wouldn't mind letting me know, I would like to know how the extended 34' of reduced diameter pipe from the bottom of my 2" well casing may or may not be attached to the bottom of the 2" well casing.
Thank you for your help.
 
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Old 03-24-11, 11:44 PM
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I have installed a thousand jet lines exactly like you described. I have never had to soak the leathers for a 2" PVC well. I know there are times when we have problems with something out of the ordinary like 2.5" or even 3". Had some leathers that turned, etc.

It's like chineese hand-cuffs. The jet line always goes in super smooth. It's the pulling out that makes it tough. You should be able to very easily install the jet line. As the line goes in it encounters water and fills up and gets heavy. That is normal. Once you have the line seated you should still be able to pull back on the line a little and feel the resistance. Sometimes I work it up/down like a windmill cylinder to make sure the leathers are good and seated. Also I normally run a screwdriver around the leathers on the surface to "flare" them a little but I don't really know if I need to, just an old habit.

If you can pull the jet up with very little diffuclty then I would say the leathers were not installed properly or were ruined when you pulled the pipe the first time. If you lift the pipe and feel them trying to grab and pull back I might try to prime it again. How much water did you use to prime it with? That set-up should not take but about 5-10 gallons.

Good luck.
 
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Old 03-25-11, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Wellman View Post
Also I normally run a screwdriver around the leathers on the surface to "flare" them a little but I don't really know if I need to, just an old habit
I do the exact same thing.
 
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Old 03-25-11, 10:53 AM
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I didn't know about trying to flare the leathers. If I do have to pull it again I will replace the leathers with new ones, and try to flare them as you said.

When I first pulled the old piping and jet assembly out of the well 6 weeks ago, I poured a cup full of powdered chlorine solution down the well to help slick and loosen the jet assembly so I could pull it up, now I'm thinking that the chlorine could still be in the well and might be keeping the new assembly and new leathers from sealing.

Also is there any way to check or test my pump motor to be sure it is actually wired at 115 Volts, and not 230 Volts?
I know if it is wired for 230 it will still run off of 115 but with reduced RPMS.
 
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Old 03-25-11, 11:13 AM
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I put chlorine into every well I service, it shouldn't affect the leathers sealing.

You'll know whether the motor is set for 115 as soon as you start it. I'm sure that the 1/2 HP is factory set at 115, most are.
 
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Old 03-26-11, 07:57 PM
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The first 1 HP pump and motor I purchased from Lowes although it was a cheap China made pump, was set at 230 Volts and unknown to me before I installed it, it was set at 230 Volts and it ran off of my 115 Volt plug I had plugged it into,,,, It ran alright off the 115 Volt plug ,,,,,but ran slower with reduced RPMs, so I know for sure that pumps wired for 230 Volts will run off of 115 Volts but with slower RPMs... I took that pump back because it leaked around the motor shaft where it connected to the pump, and that was the second pump I had purchased from the same store that had the same leak at the same place, so that is why I was willing to pay so much more for a pump with a good reputation.

I have good news though,,,, I have my new pump primed and pumping water, thanks to all your help, and advice,,,,

The pump after several days of sitting so leathers would be soaked and have no reason for not sealing, don't know if that was the reason for not sealing or not, but I am not complaining,,, it finally broke Murphy's law and begin to pumping water...

After priming with water to the very top of priming port after days and many, many tries, and running pump for several minutes with vent plug removed which Manual reccomended I unplugged pump motor and the water level in filling port reduced about 1 cup, so I filled priming port the reduced 1 cup which filled it to the top again and plugged the pump back in again and believe it or not the pump began instantly to pump instant pressure so I had to shut it down and plug the priming port and vent and plug it back in for instant pressure of 30 PSI and just a very few seconds of pump pressure of 50 PSI... A miracle in my book don't care what anyone believes, or thinks.
Murphy's law had to take a hike, or Holiday a miracle was performed, my pump started working, just for the simple shutting down of the pump motor, with the vent plug on the pump housing open that allowed me to pour just a very small cup full more of water in the primer port which somehow by a magic miracle made the pump to magically prime and begin to pump water............... An absolute miracle, unbelivable, absolutely unbelievable, just one very tiny cup of water can make. I hope this info can help others, wish I had known what such a very few ounces of water and I mean less than a cup full can make in the priming of a water pump can make.
Just Water, and Texas Well Man, thank you both very much for your very good advice, if either of you would be so kind as to let me know if perhaps the practise of Well installers that add pipe to the bottom of a 2" well Casing, may or may not be cemented to the bottom of the Well Casing or just driven down to it's level I would be very greatful, nevertheless thank you both any way. This has been quiet an experience, hope my learning and experience will be a benifeit and help to others, May the water gods smile upon you.
 
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Old 03-26-11, 09:29 PM
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glad you got everything working again!

fyi, here we mostly have rock wells. so if casing is set at 80' onto a rock, the rock may be drilled out "open bore" to 100-120'. no screen, no extra pipe. so the well would have 80' of casing, and be 120' deep.. with the last 40' being open bore.
 
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Old 03-26-11, 11:03 PM
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Glad we could help. Let us know how everything is working out.
 
 

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