Sump pump discharge length

Reply

  #1  
Old 08-17-11, 05:26 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sump pump discharge length

Hello,

I have recently added a second sump pit and pump at my house. My house is basically a rectangle. one pit is on one end and one is on the other. I live in the city and by code I have to discharge my pump either on my lawn or in the catch basin at the corner of my lot, by the curb, underground. I have a 1/3 hp submersible pump. can I have the pipe going up about 7 feet, then traveling about 60 feet to the other side of the house, the go up about 8 inches, change direction then go about another 12 feet to get out of the house? The end result is that I want both pits to empty in the same "New" place. My old pit goes to the curb and that is now illegal.

The reason it has to go up 8 inches is cause of my furnace duct work.
I know it is long and I am new at this so please bear with me!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 08-18-11, 03:00 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
As long as the pipe is large enough diameter, the horizontal runs won't have much effect... it's the vertical 'lift' that the pump has to deal with... that and any 'head' (friction) caused by the pipe (which is why it needs to be large enough), elbows and fittings, etc...

Do you have any specs on the pump itself? Look for something like 'head' or 'lift' or similar. If it's a new pump, does the install sheet say anything about pipe size?

Basically as long as the pump is powerful enough to move the require gallons per minute and overcome the vertical lift and friction in the piping, you should be able to do what you are asking... but you need the specs on the pump to determine.
 
  #3  
Old 08-18-11, 03:46 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply. I will look the information up. I have about 80 feet from the house to the catch basin. What type of slope per 10 foot of pipe do I need? I am going to be 4" drain pipe.

the catch basin is only about 2 feet deep, but from the house to the curb is about a 1.5 foot drop, then the curb is another 6-8 inches.
 
  #4  
Old 08-18-11, 03:54 PM
B
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 10,512
Received 37 Votes on 34 Posts
As long as it is down there should be no concern about slope. The other item that might be needed is a back flow stop. Without that, a lot of the water might just flow right back into the sump.

Bud
 
  #5  
Old 08-18-11, 05:54 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I think 4" pipe is probably way overkill... but let's see the specs...

Yes, a back flow stop, aka check valve will be needed.

What's the make/model of the pump?
 
  #6  
Old 08-18-11, 06:18 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 18,145
Received 60 Votes on 52 Posts
You really need the specs as Trooper suggests. Alot of these pumps are limited to length and will not pump over that.

4" pipe????? They usually have 1 1/2 or 2 " discharge. Increasing the pipe size will possibly make it not pump at all.

These 1/3 hp pumps are usually limited to 20ft of head I believe.

Here is an example of typical sump pump specs.

http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1249...389/995201.pdf

You may need a bigger pump to go the distance you want.

Mike NJ
 
  #7  
Old 08-18-11, 07:29 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The line coming from the sump pump is 1 1/2 and will stay 1 1/2 until it gets outside. I was going to bury 4" non perforated drain tile from where the pipe exits the house to the catch basin.
 
  #8  
Old 08-19-11, 10:16 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
The height that is important here is how far the pump is going to have to pump UP --- in TOTAL...

So, if you are going up 7' from the pump and then another say foot to get around the duct, your total 'head' in this example is 8'.

Friction in the pipe and the fittings is also expressed as 'head', so you need to calculate that as well.

Let's say you will use 75' of 1-1/2" PVC pipe and 4 90 elbows...

At TEN GPM 100' of 1-1/2" pipe has a bit less than 1' head.
At TWENTY GPM the same pipe has a bit less than 3' head.

So you can see that it is important that you have a good idea of how much water you will need to move WORST CASE.

Now, the FITTINGS are another story... they add SIGNIFICANT friction to the system.

There are two different 90 elbows, a 'long sweep' radius, and a 'standard' right angle.

EACH LONG SWEEP in 1-1/2" will add 4' of head.
EACH STANDARD sweep will add almost EIGHT FEET of head.

Look for the LONG SWEEP when you purchase your parts!

Let's add stuff up now (using a guesstimate of 10 GPM):

EIGHT feet of 'elevation head' plus ONE foot for the pipe plus SIXTEEN feet for the elbows, and you are up to 25' of head.

Now you have to compare this to the pump chart... use the example that Mike posted ... in the lower left of page 2 on that PDF file... you will see that pump example wouldn't even overcome the head that's built into your system!

One thing that you might think about... see if you can get away with using a piece of black plastic ABS and eliminate the elbows. If you have room to sweep a single piece of pipe in there, you might be OK.

But let's see what pump you have...
 
  #9  
Old 08-19-11, 10:43 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply.

I have a ProFlo PF92352 1/3hp pump.

I have 5 90's and I have the short radius and 60 feet of pipe.

I will have to change out the short radius 90's.

I have a a second sump pump that want to add to the discharge line. That pump is located at the end of the run from the new pipe, so that pipe will not be very long.

When I combine the two lines to get out of the house, do I use 1 1/2 or should I use a large pipe?
 
  #10  
Old 08-19-11, 11:02 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 18,145
Received 60 Votes on 52 Posts
EACH STANDARD sweep will add almost EIGHT FEET of head.

A trick used to reduce head is to use 45's where you can.

2-45's = 1-90. So to get around a bend a use of 4-45's is better the using 4-90's to make the same bend.

Mike NJ
 
  #11  
Old 08-19-11, 01:09 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
According to chart I have, a 45 in 1-1/2" is 2.1 feet... so a single long sweep 90 is, according to the same chart, slightly less than a pair of 45s. And don't forget, 4 45s doesn't equal 4 90s ! you would need 8 45s... I would definitely agree though that using 2 45s is a better choice than 1 short radius 90, but basically it's equal (4 vs 4.1, close enough) to a long radius 90 at that point.

Combining the two pumps into a single discharge could get a bit tricky... if you have the recommended check valves at the pumps, that should be enough to prevent them from 'back pumping' each other, but yes, I would think you should increase the pipe size at the point of joining the two.

Do you have a feel for how many GPM you will need to move worst case?
 
  #12  
Old 08-19-11, 01:21 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Anyone interested, here is the PDF spec sheet for John's pump:

http://dar.proflo.com/darmanager/Que...=SPECIFICATION

It appears that IF (and you may not have as much head, my estimates are on the high side) you are operating at 25' of head you will move about 6 GPM ... the way it looks on the pump curve, that will be operating right around 'cutoff'... and even small improvements in head will make a huge difference in the amount of water it can move. For example: removing just ONE of the elbows will get you to almost 15 GPM.

Is there any possibility of using the black poly pipe and snaking it through without ANY elbows? If so, that's the way to go... that pump would suck the eyeballs out of a parrot if you could to that... on second thought, maybe you don't want to suck any eyeballs out?

As far as combining pipes, a 'general' rule is that two pipes of the same size can go into one pipe of the next larger size, but that rule holds more true at the smaller size pipes. i.e. two 1/2 into 3/4 ... when you get up to the larger sizes, such as two 1-1/2 into a 2 you start to choke the flow somewhat.
 
  #13  
Old 08-19-11, 01:26 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 18,145
Received 60 Votes on 52 Posts
  #14  
Old 08-19-11, 01:32 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I just looked at my charts again... going on the presumption that each pump may be capable of 10 GPM, that means the total from two pumps could possibly be 20 GPM, and the head of 2" pipe at 20 is almost equal to 1-1/2 at 10... so I would say you could probably use the 'rule' for your setup. Just remember that any fittings such as tee's or wye's that you use to join the two are going to add even more head to the total system.
 
  #15  
Old 08-19-11, 01:39 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for all the information.

The poly pipe you are talking about -- Is that the black plastic stuff that comes in big coils??? Where would I get that Pipe? home depot/menards??? cost???

how would I connect two pipes using the black polly pipe?

thanks again for all this information.
 
  #16  
Old 08-19-11, 04:44 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Yes, and I think in a previous post I called it ABS... that's a different kind of pipe, but still black in color.

I think the poly pipe is significantly cheaper than pvc... yes, HD, Lowes, Scotty's... look in the lawn sprinkler area.

The check valves that are used for sump systems are connected with hose clamps. I would probably come up off the pump with a piece of PVC, then the check valve, then the other side of the check valve transition to the PolyEth...

Poly pipe is most easily connected with those inexpensive plastic barbed push fittings and hose clamps. It's helpful if you have a heat gun, or powerful hair dryer... some guys play a torch on the pipe... to soften it up before you push the pipe onto the fitting. Use two clamps on each fitting and position them over the barb. Use all stainless clamps.

Since the poly pipe is pretty flexible, you will probably need numerous supports along that 60' run, and remember that when that pipe is full of water it will get heavier!

Mike (or anyone!), you see any problem using poly to hook this up? code problems, etc ? If so please tell me I'm wrong!

You might even consider using that corrugated 4" stuff for the underground run to the catch basin... probably cheaper again than even the schedule 20 PVC... I'm not real keen on that corrugated stuff myself, I would use the PVC, but I've seen it used a lot for sump drain installations.

One other product which you might find useful for hooking up sump pump systems is "FERNCO FITTINGS" ... rubber collars that come with hose clamps. Many different sizes.
 
  #17  
Old 08-19-11, 04:56 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
If I could figure out how to post a picture I would!
 
  #18  
Old 08-19-11, 05:06 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Here are a few pictures of what I have already. The old line needs to be removed and run out the other side of the house. It is currently going to the curb.

Pictures by johngandersonjr - Photobucket
 
  #19  
Old 08-19-11, 05:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Ohhhhh... looks like ya already got it hooked up! Didn't realize that.

Try it! It might could work just fine, but I'm thinking that there might be some problems to overcome if both pumps came on same time... ya know, upsizing where the two pipes join.

And fer cryin' out loud, GET A COVER ON THAT 'LECTRIC PANEL before you fry you A55 !
 
  #20  
Old 08-19-11, 05:17 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
In the first pic, you could probably easily replace those two 90s at the ceiling by using 45s to angle down and over... is the right hand pipe the original pipe? I'm confused by the two pipes...
 
  #21  
Old 08-19-11, 05:59 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The pipe on the right was the first one i put in. didn't contact the city first, so I had to abandon it. i am going to be removing it. the pipe i have in right now works for the most part but where it goes into the original pipe is not great. I don't get enough flow from the new pipe to pump the water to the curb. When the new pump discharges I never see the water. when the old pump discharges I see the water at the curb. so what I was going to do is join then together then run them over the top of the ductwork to the outside. then drain them with 4" tile to the catch basin.

I just ran new 20 amp circuit to my sump pumps, that is the reason the panel cover is off. I actually installed the panel myself.
 
  #22  
Old 08-19-11, 08:31 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 18,145
Received 60 Votes on 52 Posts
OK I have to look up the code. Not sure if they can both be tied together.

The one pump that you say you see no water coming out of, is possible its just pumping to the other pit?

Cant really see a check valve on the first pit. Looks like just a fernco.

I would get rid of the iron pipe on the first pit.

The pvc looks good though.

Is that a copper water main, then galvinized, then copper back up at the top of the basement wall? I would replace that galv section.

That cast iron tee the laundry sink dumps in looks coo-coo... And the pipe looks back pitched.

Just some observation....

What panel is trooper talking about?????



Just kidding. You cant miss that!!!!!

Mike NJ
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 08-19-11 at 09:46 PM.
  #23  
Old 08-19-11, 09:05 PM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yeah the house has some issues. Just bought it a year ago. I want to get the sump pump situation taken care of then replace the 40 yr old, 80 gal electric hot water heater!
 
  #24  
Old 08-20-11, 07:57 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Ohhh! John yer an electrician AND a country music singer! good for you!

I know this is a dumb idea....... but what if.... you pump the one pump into the other and let the one pump take it outta the house? OK OK I know, dumb idea... need coffee...

I'm off to work... have fun!
 
  #25  
Old 08-20-11, 09:19 AM
J
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The bad thing with that is that I am always paying for two pumps running at the same time.

Dumb question: what is the cost to run a sump pump for a month? Mine runs a lot when it is raining, then about twice a day when it is not.
 
  #26  
Old 08-21-11, 08:19 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Hard to say about the cost of operation... would highly depend on your groundwater, how long the pump actually runs, the cost per KWH of your electricity.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: