This system was losing pressure for no apparent reason. I posted about it to this forum and got good advice.

<http://www.doityourself.com/forum/wells-sump-pumps-septic-sewage-systems/452961-losing-pressure-tank-no-apparent-reason.html>

Now it finally sprung a leak. The leak is a crack about a quarter inch long, in the back, spraying against the wall.

I assume it is time to replace.

It is 42 gal galvanized, 75 psi. It is left over from before installation of the city water and sewer. We use it for the spigots and sprinkler system--nothing indoors.

Now I'm looking for help on what to do next. Presumably replace. It's 4 feet tall and 17 inches in diameter.

What should I be shopping for? Or is it repairable??



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Thanks Gary

 

Hi,

You could pobably replace with a bladder type tank, Since you dont use it for the home you could probably put in one half the size.

Although what is the usage for the sprinkler system? Where is the pump? Submersible?

Does the pump cycle?

Meaning when running the sprinkler system does the pressure cycle up and down? Or does it stay steady?

Mike NJ

 

We have a submersible pump in the front yard. An underground pipe comes up through the basement cement floor next to the existing tank. There is a T at that point; water goes into the tank and also to the sprinkler system piping. I think it doesn't cycle when you run the sprinkler.





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We have some extensive gardens that we water with the spigots, and I use the sprinkler during dry spells. Our lot is 1/2 acre.

I'm OK with a bladder tank, if that will do. What volume? I see 20 gal to 62 gallon tanks at Menards--Vertical Stand Model Pre-Charged Water System Tanks. Is this what I want?

I sure would like to use all the existing wiring and plumbing as much as possible.

Many thanks for your help.

Gary

p.s. I was actually standing in the room when this thing went off. It was just like a scene from the 3 Stooges.

 

The only thing you need to touch is the connection into the tank. Disconnect there and connect to the new tank.

Also that copper line mid way on the old tank gets capped.

Read the bladder tanks. They are smaller but act like the size of your tank.

I believe a 20 gallon bladder tank = a 40 gallon steel tank. My 40 gallon bladder acts as an 80 gallon steel.

Here is some reading.

Water Tanks & Other Types of Tanks in Buildings, Water Tanks, Tank Repairs, When to Replace a Tank

Also set the air in the new tank to 5 psi below your cut in pressure. Thats the pressure that your pump comes on.

Mike NJ

 

If using for watering, your flow rate is probably pretty high... so in order to minimize the starts and stops of the pump, you might be better with a larger tank? I'm not sure about this, just thinking out loud, but I do know that fewer starts/stops will prolong the life of your pump.

You might also look into a 'cycle stop valve' (google it)

Mike said:
Mike, isn't that the pressure switch connection? Wouldn't he need to hook that back up?

I usually go with 2 PSI below the cut-in to maximize the tank usage... and since these tanks will lose air pressure over time it would give you a bit extra 'headroom' before you needed to add air to the tank. I would recommend depressurizing the system at least every two years to check the air pressure in the tank. You'll get the longest life out of the new tank by keeping the pressure correct.

 

From the picture you posted, you have an air-release in the side of the tank.( that black plastic thing about half way up)
If that is the case, you would need to replace the tank with the same kind you have. A bladder tank will not work.
It would also make putting everything back together the same easier than re plumbing for the bladder tank.

 

The copper line attaches to the gauge which is mounted on the water pump pressure switch. The black plastic thing is an air volume control/air release, I believe; it just hisses and spits occasionally. I have a milk jug hanging on it to catch dribbles. I believe I've seen setups where the copper line connects to this part and never understood why my copper line mounts directly into the tank rather than into this part.



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So, am I back looking for the exact same setup, or can I get an off-the-shelf plastic tank with a schrader valve?

I see Menard's does have some epoxy coated tanks with 3 outlets: outlet a (bottom) 1-1/4" NPTF, outlet b (middle) 1-1/4" NPTF and outlet c (top) 1/4" NPTF.

Gary

 

I'm not sure I understand why a bladder tank wouldn't work if the pressure switch was properly connected to the tank tee on a new bladder tank.. ? .. Waterwelldude, can you ejumicate me please?

Yes, it might be a bit of plumbing to get it piped up, but other than that, I guess I just don't understand? If a bladder tank were to be used there, it could be raised up on some blocks in order to make the tank connection easier.

Gary, I know the point may be moot, but the bladder tanks aren't plastic...

 

If the tank has an air-release, that means there is a sniffer/shrader valve somewhere, and down in the well there is a bleeder orifice in the drop pipe. It is used to drain the top joint of drop pipe.

If the tank were replaced with a bladder tank, the sniffer and the bleeder would need to be removed and plugged.
Other wise the air that was meant for the tank he has now, would build up in the bladder tank with no way to get out except through the plumbing. Before long the tank would have no water just air.

 

If you have a tank with a bladder, do you still need a copper line and pump pressure switch, and will the pump will be kicking on and off about the same number of times, and is the bladder a part that fails?

This old tank is probably from 1985 when the house was built. I'm wondering what kind is likely to last longer and also be kinder to the pump.

Or am I missing a whole point in all this?

Gary

 

Ohhhhh, now I get it! Thanks for the explain. So it looks like Gary would need to replace with same then. I didn't know there was stuff down the well!

Gary, yes, you would still need a pressure switch. Something needs to tell the pump to turn on and off. There's nothing 'wrong' with replacing the tank with same, I guess Mike and I just thought it might be better (maybe a bit cheaper?) to replace with bladder... but you see we were wrong!

Your pump will still cycle with both systems. It HAS to, you are pumping water after all with either type of tank. A larger tank would only cause the pump to pump longer, and then in between longer draw down times as you used the water in the tank... lather rinse repeat.

 

Sorry. Yes its a AVC on a submersible pump. I was thinking shallow well with the tube coming from a shallow pump. But then again it isnt hooked to the AVC. I should have looked more closely.

Air volume control: How to Find & Repair, Replace, or Remove the Water Tank Air Volume Control


IMO I think its foolish using those types of tanks. But thats me.

Yes as trooper states you need to tie that copper line to the water piping. This will allow the pressure switch to function.

Trooper they do make a plastic tank. The water touches the tank and there is a air bladder on top. They are crude IMO. I would never use one and never had.

The Xtrols have the air in the tank and the water fills the bladder. More sanitary IMO.

To minimize taking all that piping apart I would put the new tank uo on blocks. Then just add a tee to tie in that line and then tie into the tank. The bladder tanks tie in at the very bottom.

I dont think there is stuff in the well..... Thats sounds crazy.
Just My opinion.

Mike NJ

 

I just did a bit of studyin' up... and I agree with WWD...

Gary, do you see a check valve and schrader somewhere?

Here's what I lernt: Down well on the drop pipe there is a bleeder valve, or even just a small hole in the drop pipe. On the pipe from the well to the tank there must be a check valve. On the pump side of the check valve is a schrader valve. In the tank is the air volume control.

When the pump stops, the check valve closes. The water in the pipe drains back into the well via the bleeder on the drop pipe. The Schrader valve allows air into the pipe because of the suction from the water draining out of the pipe.

Pump starts again, and the air in the pipe is pushed into the tank. This maintains the air into the tank.

If too much air gets into the tank, the air control float drops and lets it out again.

In this way the correct air level is maintained in the tank.
=============================
Here's where I lernt it, Pumps Tanks Motors And Wells - Frequently Asked Questions - PumpsAndTanks.com :

Q. How do I keep a galvanized tank from waterlogging with a submersible pump?

The hi-tech way (has been around since I was a baby) is to install a bleeder in the droppipe in the well or drill a small 3/16” hole to let water escape once the pump shuts off. A check valve is installed in front of the tank with a tapped 1/4” hole on the pump side of the valve to install a schrader valve (car tire valve with threads) which with the cap removed will allow air into the pipes while the bleeder/hole is letting water out. I recommend the bleeder/hole to be between 10 and 20 feet below the top of the well. With the above in place, when the pump shuts off, the water will bleed from the bleeder/hole letting air into the pipes through the schrader valve. The pump kicks on and puts the air into the tank. When the air gets down to the level of the the side opening in the the tank, an air release valve lets the excess air out by means of a float. As long as the bleeder/hole and the air release valve are working the tank will not waterlog.
==============================
I only worked with a galvanized tank once... and that was a long time ago, and it wasn't broke so I didn't have to fix it, other than replace the leaky drain valve at the bottom.

 

Whew!

On the tank itself are 5 openings. I don't see a Shrader valve anywhere. The 5 openings are
1) on the very top (not used) 1 1/4"?
2) on the lower left; out to spigots 1 1/4"?
3) on the lower right; in from well 1 1/4"
4) in the middle center; plastic air volume control is there 2"?
5) upper center, copper tube is there 1/2"? This one for the copper tube actually looks
maybe after-market welded in.



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Gary

 

Its amazing....

Gary I guess you need the same tank.

1985 house, I wonder why they put this type of system in. We were putting bladder tanks in back then so I know they had them. I guees you can be sure that you have that stuff in the well.

My apologies... In all my years I have never seen it. Like trooper. I only came across a few back in the day.. All shallow design.

Mike NJ

 

Thanks for all the input.

On the epoxy lined steel tank I found in the Menard's catalog, there are only 3 openings, while mine has 4.

I suppose the next step is to find a tank with the same holes as mine, or more. I'll get on that tomorrow.

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.

Thanks. Gary

 

Gary, I'm sure that you can connect the copper tubing to the pressure switch to the piping itself, perhaps Waterwelldude can confirm that. So I don't think you need a tapping on the tank for that small fitting. On all the water systems I've seen, the pressure switch itself is actually mounted ON the piping itself, and then wiring to the panel. I can't explain why they did it this way.

1. I've never seen connected. Always plugged. Probably there for ease of manufacture.

2. This doesn't look like a tank tapping in your system. I believe there is a TEE fitting there, external to the tank. In from well on bottom, out to system on left, out to tank on top.

3. see above, from top of tee to tank.

4. You will need this.

5. Can be connected to piping I believe.

You probably only NEED the bottom tapping, and the tapping for the AVC.

BTW, I found this diagram which should help explain what's what with that system:


image courtesy pumpsonline.com

 

Why not try to fix the leak if the water level can be lowered below the leak? Maybe braised with high temp silver solder if it's small or even a braised patch if larger. I'd probably try a fiber glass patch, resin, cloth, more resin. If it doesn't hold you can look for a new tank.

 

I read that the AVC needs to be specific for the depth of the well also. Possibly someone can verify.....

Just adding a wrench the issue.

Mike NJ

 

I don't know why it would be Mike... all it is is a float inside the tank that let's air out.

 

Yeah I guess the difference is one is with the tube attached for the shallow well.

And the one without the tube for deep wells like Gary has.

He would need this.

Campbell WJAVC Air Volume Control

I am having a hard time finding replacement tanks. We have them locally at a well place here in NJ. But cant find steel units online...

Well mate is the only side port I could find.

SidePort "SP" Series | WELLMATE Pentair Water

They have something with a AVC on the top.

HP Quick Connect Series | WELLMATE Pentair Water


Mike NJ

 

Why do you think it's foolish?

 

First hit in Google for 'galvanized well tank' turnt up this place:

Water Pressure Tanks - Galvanized Type

 

Yeah.... You see I am anti google. I use some other search engine that is more geared to useless information..

Well like me ask you this, do they install these type tanks in any new wells anymore? And if not why??????

Mike NJ

 

The majority of tanks in this area are galvanized tanks. The reason being is that bladder tanks here, for some reason, make the water stink. You put a galv. tank on, the water doesn't stink. Bladder tank = stinks. Don't know why ( have my suspicions).

Not to mention the galv. tanks last far longer than most bladder tanks in most cases. With decent water, it's not unusual to see tanks that are 40-50 years old. Try getting that out of a bladder. With a good air-maker or a good air charge 2-3 times per year you can have a long life out of a regular galv. tank and not hurt your pump/motor.

 

Sears carries galvanized tanks.

 

I know about stanky water! Good riddance to that old stinkwater well!

I had a good quality bladder tank on my system for about 20 years or so... and it finally busted a bladder. I bet a good quality galvanized tank would last longer than that.

Put a cheapo tank on in an emergency after the first one went out and it lasted about 3 years.

Seems the weak point of the galv tank setup would be the air valve... but those are easily and cheaply replaced.

Probably the biggest downside to the galvanized tanks is the room they require... up here in the Nawt, we don't have as much room as ya do down there in TX !

Probably the most important thing to making a bladder tank live long is to check and adjust the air charge every year or two. (Same goes with boiler systems!) I mean, how often do you check the air in your car tires? Don't you think the 'tire' inside that tank needs some love too?

 

I had a new tank installed professionally, matching the existing. And so far so good.

Thanks again.

Gary