Well Pump not pumping water to house!


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Old 09-04-11, 07:51 AM
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Well Pump not pumping water to house!

First, I want to thank you all for taking the time out of your days to help John Q. Public with their household mishaps, you all have my deepest admiration!
I have a well pipe that I believe is 6" diameter with a 240 volt, 1&1/2 HP, 10 GPM well pump, that was replaced on 5/24/1996 because the one that was 3 years old, failed. They also replaced the Square D Pumptrol , I believe it's Model#9013FSQ 2 at the same time. My well depth is 540' and the Pump set is 520'. I also have in my basement a Well X Trol Tank, Model # WX-203 with a max working pressure of 100 PSI and a test pressure of 100 PSI, however the gauge on the tank currently reads 0 PSI and it seems to be entirely empty. I routinely change the filter every three months and don't ever recall it feeling so "light". Last night, I jumped in the shower and all was fine. Not 5 minutes later, my wife went to use the shower and there was absolutely no water. Of course I checked the well pump breaker, which happens to run through my Generac whole house generator panel and is easy to find. I tried resetting the breaker, just in case. Nothing, I checked the water heater breaker, not that would effect the well pump however it too, runs through my generator panel, it was also fine. I've had the generator for 3 years now & it has worked flawlessly, so I'm thinking it has nothing to do with the generator panel. I then removed the cover from the Square D Pumtrol and checked the voltage in, which was 240v and out which also was 240v. I then went out to the well head & found an ants nest inside the cover. I resolved that rather quickly, then tested the voltage at the connector where the wires go down to the well pump & got 240v. I also noticed that there is no rope or anything else to aide in pulling the pump out, if in fact, that's what needs to be done. I did help the plumber pull the last pump out with my tractor because of the length, however, I was not home when they put the new pump down the well. I'm leaning towards the well pump being broken, simply by process of elimination, unless there is something that I have missed, overlooked or simply just don't know about. You have helped me in the past resolve my septic pump float issue, for which I am grateful, as it was a warranty item and only took my time to replace & that was great. Please let me know if you need any additional information, but I think I've been quit thorough in describing my system and its components. Thanks to all for lending your expert opinion, not having water is tougher than one can imagine, especially with three kids & a wife all wanting to take showers, wash clothes, etc....

Kindest Regards,

fnolteiii
 
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Old 09-04-11, 09:04 AM
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If you've got power all the way out to the well head it would seem that your diagnosis is correct. Do you have a clamp-on ammeter by any chance? If you did you could tell if the pump was drawing any current... but not sure if that would really help with anything. Bottom line is that it isn't pumping.

I suppose the problem could be as simple as a broken wire or bad connection, but in any case it sounds as though the pump needs pulled. My recent install the guys used a stainless aircraft cable, not rope. I wonder if it fell down the well?
 
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Old 09-04-11, 01:15 PM
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hi guys Ė

I have a 75í well with a submersible pump and as far as I can tell the pump is just hanging on the black poly water pipe supported up top only by the well seal. There is no rope. That makes me nervous because the pump manufacturer says you should include a rope in the installation.

However, I remember back a while ago, and Iím pretty sure on this forum, there was a very heated debate about whether or not a rope should be used. It seems like many of the proís think a rope SHOULD NEVER BE USED because there is too great a chance that the rope can get jammed down in the casing with the pump. And it seems like this includes many proís Ė not just a handful.

Puts novice newbieís in a tough position Ė seems the manufactures say install the pumps with a safety rope, but a very significant number of the guys that do this for a living say the risk isnít worth the benefit.
 
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Old 09-04-11, 01:32 PM
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I kinda sorta agree with ya Dad... about the rope. In addition to it falling down the well, I would be concerned that over time it would rot and be useless... yeah, I know that some of the synthetic ropes say they won't rot... but I believe in never say never. That's why I was pretty comfortable when I saw the aircraft cable these guys on my job used. I guess it could still fall down the well, but there is a big ole stainless washer under the cover which would be pretty difficult to get past the pitless adapter. Go fish!
 
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Old 09-04-11, 02:04 PM
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OK, I finally found my clamp on amp meter, however, I have limited knowledge of its use other than a normal volt/amp meter. If I flip the well breaker back on, what exactly am I clamping the meter to? I'm guessing the 2 hot leads that go down to the well pump or one wire at a time? I also don't quite know what to do about the tank in the basement that has no pressure reading. Do I have to prime that tank or is it a self priming tank, provided the well pump functions properly? One last question if I may, is there a way to force the "Pumptrol" device to trick it into calling for water? That would definitely rule out that portion of the equation, no? I am handy but will need a little step by step if there is a way of bypassing or tricking it into calling for water. I appreciate your help and hope you made out unscathed from Irene last week? I just noticed your a Jersey Guy and was curious how bad it was where you live... offtrack but curious, Thanks for your help! So if I end up pulling the pump the whole 520', how the heck do I pull it? Should I tie off to the three wires and hope for the best of hope to locate a rope further on down the line? I also remember that when they changed it last time, they had some sort of "guide" that they put in the pipe to minimize scraping of the wires as the lines were pulled out. Any suggestions on where to pick up one of those handy devices or even what the real name for it is? Remember I have a 520' pull ahead of me. If this is my third pump in 9 years, what's causing this? My neighbor next door, who I'm piping in water from, has had the same pump since the day her house was built, which is 1 year earlier than mine...do I go with a larger HP pump, more volume pump? Would like to have to stop replacing well pumps every 4-5 years. I am told they should last longer than that?

Fnolteiii
 

Last edited by fnolteiii; 09-04-11 at 02:14 PM. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old 09-04-11, 05:15 PM
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I know that I don't have to tell you to BE CAREFUL! That 240 VAC can KILL YOU! ... right?

what exactly am I clamping the meter to?
Just one of the hot wires at a time. If you clamp onto both, the reading will always be zero. You will get the same reading on both wires, so you only need to check one. But like I said, I don't know if it will tell you anything useful. Obviously if the current is ZERO, and you are sure that you have 240 VAC at the top of the well, then I would suspect a broken wire, or a bad pump. If you DO have a current draw, then you still might have a bad motor, but maybe the pump is actually running and for some reason not drawing any water... so the ammeter may not really tell you anything conclusive.

Do I have to prime that tank or is it a self priming tank, provided the well pump functions properly?
You don't need to do anything with the tank. When the pump runs it will fill itself.

is there a way to force the "Pumptrol" device to trick it into calling for water?
That pumptol ... just to be sure we're talking about the same thing ... is a small gray box mounted on or very near the tank, correct? That is your 'pressure switch' and we should talk about that because it could possibly be your problem... from what you've said so far, I don't think so, but let me ask a few questions about it.

You did say that you measured 240 VAC at the pump, so these questions may have no point either, just like the ammeter... but anyway:

Is this what it looks like?


image courtesy catskillhouse.us

Notice that the red and black come in on one side and go out on the other. Let's call the terminals from right to left, one through four. The terminal 'pairs' are 1 and 3 , and 2 and 4 , ... The in and out could come from either side... doesn't matter. So, if the IN from the panel is on 1 and 3, you should measure 240VAC there. If the out to the pump is on 2 and 4 , when the pressure drops, that switch closes and the pump runs. And when that happens you should measure 240 VAC there.

NOTE: sometimes these are wired differently! Some guys will wire the IN on 1 and 4, and the OUT on 2 and 3 ... but the bottom line is that when the pumptrol engages, terminals 1 and 2 get connected, and terminals 3 and 4 get connected. You could even wire the IN on 2 and 3, and the OUT on 1 and 4 ... would still work. So, if yours is wired differently, don't worry about it...

You can visually see if the pumptrol is calling for the pump to run... see those contacts on top? The contacts that the wires are connected to are all individuals. The far ones in this pic you will notice that there are two 'bars', each with two contacts on them. When the switch engages, those bars move forward and connect the pump to the line.

Are the contacts together?

more later... the chef has informed me that dinner is served.
 
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Old 09-04-11, 05:57 PM
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here is a picture of my pressure switch with cover removed. The AC power from the panel comes in on the right side of the switch and goes to the well pump out of the left side. I am note sure if you can see if the contacts are "calling for water" or not from this picture and I can't actually tell myself. not sure if this will help you and I'm a little confused about the clamp on ammeter. I clamp the clamp around one of the hot wires, turn the meter to volts AC then I press the APO button and I should get a reading close to 240 volts...but I'm no where near that. I've tried on both sides of the pressure switch. It could be that I am screwing the pooch and not using the meter properly. I appreciate your patience with my ignorance of high tech tools. Just because a person can afford one, doesn't always mean he know how to use it to its fullest... that would be me. I have all kinds of stuff that I'm sure does much more but I don't know how to use them to their fullest. hopefully you'll actually see the photo this time around. This is also the 1st time I've tried to upload a photo. Please note on the pressure gauge that the pressure has raised from zero to around 25 but still not kicking the pump on
 

Last edited by fnolteiii; 09-04-11 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 09-04-11, 06:08 PM
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You need to post pictures to a free site like photobucket. Then post the link back here.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-04-11, 07:31 PM
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Yes, set up a free account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload your pics there. Come back here and place a link to your PUBLIC album and we can go to view them.

When you use the clamp on AMP meter, you aren't measuring volts, you are measuring AMPS... what kind of meter is it?

If the gauge was at zero previously, and it is now at 25, then the pump is probably working and there may be another problem...

Yes, pumps should last longer than what you say yours are lasting...

My part of NJ didn't really get hit that bad by the storm, thanks for asking!
 
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Old 09-04-11, 08:42 PM
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is where the photo is stored. According to Flickr, simply copy and paste that web address into any browser. My meter is an Ideal Model 61-738, wasn't cheap as far as meters go!
 
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Old 09-05-11, 06:19 AM
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pressure switch email | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
this is what flickr tells me is where the photo is & they say copy and paste and you should see the photo. I also opened a photobucket account and put the picture in my public folder, here is the link for that too:
Pictures by fnolteiii - Photobucket



Hope you can access these as a reference tool, running a hose from neighbors house is getting old, pressure sucks and I don't want to burden their well pump supporting 2 houses. We are not running washer or dishwasher, just basic showers & toilets to conserve... I want my pump back. Please let me know what I have to do in order to get this back up. Should I consider a larger pump or is that determined by the well driller when the well is dug depending on pressure and volume at the depth that he drills to? I'm formerly from the city and water came in through the basement from the water utility, not from your own well in the backyard. I'm trying to get used to country living but finding it difficult with all of these different systems that we never had before.
 
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Old 09-05-11, 07:57 AM
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I will try for you. Just the link.

pressure switch email | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Ohh sorry I see you have the link already. I just keep looking at red X's

Mike NJ
 
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Old 09-05-11, 07:58 AM
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Your meter is apparently a discontinued model and the Ideal website isn't very cooperative in serving up manuals... I was able to get a manual for the 61-736 which I presume is very similar to yours... When you use the clamp, it has to go around only one of those 4 wires, and it must close completely. Switch the dial to A~ and you should get an AC AMPERES reading on the display.

From what I can see on the Pumptrol pic, it appears that the contacts are made and it is calling for the pump to run. Another pic taken straight down would allow me to see the contacts to be sure.

I do have to tell you that your wiring isn't quite up to par as far as electrical codes go. Those loose wires on the left ain't right. They should be enclosed in something... it's just incorrect to run loose wires like that. The wires on the right... if this is in fact a 240VAC circuit, the electricians should have colored the white wire either black or red by code. White color is reserved for NEUTRAL wires. But none of this is any reason your pump won't run, I'm just sayin' it's something should be attended to.

I'm thinking that the wires on the right are the ones coming from your house panel, and they are on terminals 1 and 4. You should measure 240VAC there.

The wires on the left are I believe the ones going to your well pump, terminals 2 and 3, if the Pumptrol is calling for water, you should also measure 240VAC there.

And you previously said that you have 240 VAC out at the top of the well head, correct? So I'm presuming that the switch is in fact calling for water and that the wiring from the house to the well is intact.

That gets us back to the well... It seems a sure bet given the above that there is some problem down well... pulling 500+' of well pipe full of water, and the well pump, is not really something that should be attemped by DIY'er. That whole thing is gonna be HEAVY! If your drop pipe is say schedule 80 poly, and full of water, including the pump you might be looking at 500 pounds. One wrong move and there goes the whole thing, right down the well... and possible broken fingers, hands, arms...

Pros use special equipment to remove that stuff. Winches, rollers, cranes, etc...

At this point, it might be best to call someone... since time isn't on your side.
 
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Old 09-05-11, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by fnolteiii View Post

... If this is my third pump in 9 years, what's causing this? My neighbor next door, who I'm piping in water from, has had the same pump since the day her house was built, which is 1 year earlier than mine...do I go with a larger HP pump, more volume pump? Would like to have to stop replacing well pumps every 4-5 years. I am told they should last longer than that?

Fnolteiii
fnolt I donít know much but I believe if your pump is short cycling that can cause tremendous wear on your pump and would shorten the life. My understanding is that it is the startup that wears the pump. I believe even for a 1/2 or 3/4 hp pump the minimum time for a run should be 1-2 minutes (something like that anyway).

So if your pumps have been coming on then quickly off (e.g., say 25 secs) then that might explain their short life span. I think the on-off time is determined by the setting of your pressure switch and the size of your pressure tank. Looks like your WX- 203 has a drawdown of around 9 gallons. Iím getting in over my head here but Iím wondering if the tank is a little too small for a 1 1/2 hp 10 gpm pump that you have? Was thinking maybe you need a tank with a larger drawdown, like 15 gallon drawdown, e.g. the WX-250? Maybe it wouldnít make that much difference? But still, I think you should make sure the cycle time is OK when you get the current situation under control.

Just a thought! The installers should have checked the cycle time Ė one would think.

Good luck!

p.s. NJ Trooper has as many saves as Bernie Parent (if you know who Bernie is, OK, youíre not that old)
 
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Old 09-05-11, 10:48 AM
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all of your assumptions about the wiring to and from the switch are correct. The wires that run out to the well do go into a PVC pipe that comes out right at the well head, as for the wires that run to the panel, I couldn't believe that they used such a thin wire for 240v 20 amp circuit, however, I wasn't the first owner of the house, I bought it 1 year after completion because of the previous owners job relocation. As for calling in the "Pro's", last time they replaced the pump, the special equipment you are referring to was my John Deere Tractor which they tied a rope to the bumper and told me to start driving forward, they did have some sort of device they placed in the cast iron well pipe to prevent the line from tearing as I pulled it up out of the hole, real high tech aren't they? They are the most recommended company in the area, so much for where I live.... I am going to recheck my voltage levels and will report back, even though it seems useless at this point. Thanks again for sticking with me.... more to follow
 
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Old 09-05-11, 11:08 AM
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Hiya Dad, thanks for the vote of confidence, and thankfully I can still see out of both eyes!

they tied a rope to the bumper and told me to start driving forward, they did have some sort of device they placed in the cast iron well pipe to prevent the line from tearing as I pulled it up out of the hole, real high tech aren't they?
That would have made a good YT video... only thing more entertaining might have been if they had called in a helicopter.

Keep us posted as to what you find!
 
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Old 09-05-11, 12:42 PM
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I've often thought that the tank in the basement was small in comparison to others I've seen at friends homes, granted, each system is unique, but I seem to have the deepest well depth in the neighborhood, having spoken with them about their well depths. They don't know much more than that about their systems. As for mine, I am unable to tell when the pump is on or off, is there a way I can tell other than by looking at the contacts on the pressure switch? The well head is about 25' away from the house and as I've mentioned, 540' deep. I simply cannot hear any pumps turning on or off. I will have that looked in to by the next person I have scheduled to come tomorrow to look at the system. Are there certain questions I should be asking this new guy? I would appreciate any help you may have to offer. I'm not sure I can afford a completely new system due to costs, but I would like to know what is best and also if I can increase the pressure in the house slightly, that wouldn't be a bad thing either. There has always been low pressure as far as I'm concerned, that's why they changed out the pressure switch when they replaced the last well pump. They claimed it would increase the volume of water that the well pumped out. Not knowing any better, I went along with it. Maybe they were just padding the bill, who knows. I had the same company come out last year to resolve an AC issue and they basically started replacing parts and hoping for the best outcome. After replacing contacts, blower motor and other various parts, the system finally stabilized, but it was a costly visit well over $1200 & it took them several days to get the parts needed saying their supply house had to order parts, which left us without AC during the heatwave last summer. It certainly made for a very cranky wife and children. It also made me think about calling in another person, but this is who everyone I spoke with recommended. So put on your thinking cap and please let me know what I should be asking. Thanks for your help! as a side note, Richter wasn't a bad goalie either, if that help with the age issue!

Regards,
F Nolte III
 
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Old 09-05-11, 08:58 PM
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hi fnolte Ė

I think that if you canít hear the pump my understanding is that you can use another method which is to look at the pressure gauge near the tank when you are using water. When the pressure hits the lowest point (e.g. 40 psi) the pump comes on and the pressure rises and then the pump stops at the top pressure (e.g. 60 psi). So I believe you can get cycle times using that method and watching the gauge at the tank for a while why you are using water.

I think also if the air pressure in the tank is not set properly that could also cause a short cycle (if indeed that really is happening.). It should be set to 2 psi below your cut-in pressure. For example if your Pumptrol pressure switch is a 30-50 switch, meaning the switch starts the pump when the pressure drops to 30 psi and stops the pump when the pressure reaches 50 psi, then the air in your tank should be set to 28 psi. If it is a 40-60 switch then the air pressure in the tank should be set to 38 psi.

If you look inside the cover of the Pumptrol switch I believe you will see that it identifies the switch as a 30-50 or 40-60 etc. And Iím sure you are supposed to set the air pressure in the tank when the tank is emptied of water. So I just turn the pump of with the wall switch so it wonít start, then I drain the tank, and then set the air properly with a bicycle pump and a tire gauge. Then I just turn the pump back on with the wall switch and the Pumptrol pressure switch starts the pump and the tank fills and the pressure rises to the cut-off value.

On the first page in the forum you will see a sticky at the top of the page that explains all of the stuff very well.

But I guess all of that wonít help now, but seems like you will have to make sure the cycling is OK when you get back up and running because something is making you go through pumps too quickly. I believe also that if the pump runs at a voltage that is too low that can shorten the life of a pump. If there is a lot of sediment in the water that could shorten the life of the pump. So there are some things to check when the system is back running.

But I guess as Trooper deduced it seems like the problem unfortunately must be down in the well. If the pressure switch contacts are closed and you also got voltage out at the well head then it seems like unfortunately the pump should be running.

Maybe whoever is coming in tomorrow to take a look can see something else that was overlooked so that you donít have to pull the pump. Hope so!

Good luck! (and oh yea - Richter really was great!)
 
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Old 09-06-11, 07:04 AM
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Well professional spoke to me at length last night & feels there are several issues at hand. First, he believes, that the tank I have is too small for the pump and amount of water and the depth of the well. So we are considering going from the 203 to a 250. He thought that would greatly increase the life span of the pump. Then he also discussed the gauge of the wire running down to the well pump. A horse and a half pump draws substantial amperage when it first kicks on, so we'll be looking at that as well. Finally, the pump itself, he wants to make certain the size is right and that there are plenty of Torque Boots installed because of the amount of torque when the pump first turns on. He also has the proper hydraulic equipment for pulling the old pump out without having to use my John Deere Tractor! I don't think the homeowner/customer should be responsible for providing the necessary tools for a contractor to do a job, ie: bring your own damn tools! He also recommends that we replace the pressure switch since we'll be installing a new pump & tank. After 5 years of short cycling, as you mentioned, the contacts are probably burnt toast at this point. He sounded very knowledgeable and I felt totally comfortable using him, as opposed to the last "specialist" (sarcasm) I had called in to replace the last pump. Thanks to all for the tips, tricks and advice, I definitely do not think this would be a good DIY project for any homeowner, especially since the depth is in excess of 500' and the weight involved of jerking that mutha out of the ground. I already have a bad back and need a knee replacement, let's not add missing fingers, hands or whatever else could happen in the blink of an eye. This new guy has drilled past 1200' and been in business for 30 years. That sounds like the guy I want working on my system, not some general purpose contractor that learns as he goes! Thanks again for all the help and I'll let you know the outcome. He believes in a 1 day job so hopefully, he'll be completed tomorrow afternoon, weather permitting of course.

Thanks,
F Nolte III
 
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Old 09-06-11, 04:12 PM
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I think you are right, this guy seems from what you have said to know his stuff.

Yes, the wires down the well should be replaced with a pump replacement and of course the proper gauge... but leads me to ask about what looks to me like 14ga NM cable from your breaker panel to the pressure switch... did he talk about running a new cable to the panel? or does he feel comfortable with what is already there?

If your existing tank is is good condition, there is no real reason that you can't simply connect an additional tank to give you the capacity you need to prevent short cycles. Usually though there is room for a larger tank, but not an additional tank. Just a thought.

Ask your installer if he is familiar with 'CYCLE STOP VALVES' ... with these you can get away with a much smaller tank, and your existing tank is probably more than large enough. I wouldn't let him talk you into a 'Variable Frequency Drive' though.

Cycle Stop Valves, Inc.

A good 'pump control box' can help prevent damage to a pump under certain conditions.

http://www.wwpp.com/products/frankli...cdatasheet.pdf

Gee, it sure is easy to spend someone else's money, isn't it?

I am gonna take a guess that your last guy didn't install but maybe ONE torque arrestor! Let us know what he finds!
 
 

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