Water shutting on and off while showering
#1
11-30-15, 06:29 PM
Water shutting on and off while showering
What would cause a submersible well pump to turn off before reaching cut in pressure?
Symptoms. Standing in shower have good pressure then pump/water turns off. Wait a few seconds and pump and water come back on.
Have set and reset cut on and cut off pressure and have also adjusted water tank pressure to 2-4 psi below cut in pressure.
the only way I can get water to stay on continuously now is to let most of the air out of the tank (say down to 5 or 10 psi). Water Pressure in the shower is sacrificed doing this but otherwise everything else seems to be working correctly.
Pump does NOT appear to be short cycling either before or after adjusting the tank pressure (at least not significantly..... I think).
One note of mention that may be a clue is that for some reason water pressure at the gauge continues to rise by as much (or more than) 20 psi AFTER the pressure switch cuts out. I know the switch is disconnecting and therefor the pump is not pumping.
Any ideas?
Symptoms. Standing in shower have good pressure then pump/water turns off. Wait a few seconds and pump and water come back on.
Have set and reset cut on and cut off pressure and have also adjusted water tank pressure to 2-4 psi below cut in pressure.
the only way I can get water to stay on continuously now is to let most of the air out of the tank (say down to 5 or 10 psi). Water Pressure in the shower is sacrificed doing this but otherwise everything else seems to be working correctly.
Pump does NOT appear to be short cycling either before or after adjusting the tank pressure (at least not significantly..... I think).
One note of mention that may be a clue is that for some reason water pressure at the gauge continues to rise by as much (or more than) 20 psi AFTER the pressure switch cuts out. I know the switch is disconnecting and therefor the pump is not pumping.
Any ideas?
#2
11-30-15, 06:42 PM
Member
Sounds like your pressure switch is not seeing the true pressure right away. A common cause for this is "stuff" clogging the short 1/4" pipe that connects the typical pressure switch to the Pressure tank well Tee. Fill a bucket with some clean water. Shut off the power, drain the tank, and disconnect the wires to the pressure switch. Remove the switch and check the pipe for obstructions. Make sure you also flush out the fitting where the pipe screws into the pressure switch. Put it all back together and test again. Make sure you are setting the tank pressure with it completely drained of water. Good luck!
#3
11-30-15, 06:42 PM
Group Moderator
Welcome to the forums.
You need the proper amount of air in the pressure tank to keep the pump from short cycling.
The pressure switch is connected to the plumbing with a small piece of tubing or pipe that can become plugged. That will cause the pressure switch to not maintain the proper pressure.
If would be really helpful if you could post a picture or two of your setup.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html
You need the proper amount of air in the pressure tank to keep the pump from short cycling.
The pressure switch is connected to the plumbing with a small piece of tubing or pipe that can become plugged. That will cause the pressure switch to not maintain the proper pressure.
If would be really helpful if you could post a picture or two of your setup.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html
#4
12-01-15, 05:20 AM
Rough rule: "You do not let air out of the pressure tank. You let water out of the pressure tank."
Reality: You would only let air out if you put too much in or if you modified the pump cut in (turn on) switch setting to be lower. This is done only after the pump is switched off, a faucet opened, and all the water has exited the pressure tank into the depressurized rest of the system.
A pressure tank will never acquire and retain additional air by itself so as to degrade its performance unless it is defective like having a ruptured and herniated bladder.
The connection between the pressure tank and the rest of the system also needs to be checked for clogging.
Reality: You would only let air out if you put too much in or if you modified the pump cut in (turn on) switch setting to be lower. This is done only after the pump is switched off, a faucet opened, and all the water has exited the pressure tank into the depressurized rest of the system.
A pressure tank will never acquire and retain additional air by itself so as to degrade its performance unless it is defective like having a ruptured and herniated bladder.
The connection between the pressure tank and the rest of the system also needs to be checked for clogging.
Last edited by AllanJ; 12-01-15 at 05:35 AM.
#5
12-01-15, 07:11 AM
From your description of the slow-reacting gauge I believe the others are correct that the gauge and switch ports are plugged with crud. Another possibility that fits the "no water" symptom is if your pressure tank is overcharged with air (or is waterlogged) the bladder will push down & seal off the outlet of the tank before the pump cuts in. While showering this sudden drop in pressure/flow feels like the pump has turned off. The bladder doesn't lift until the pump pressure is higher than the tank pressure. Always charge the tank with the pump off & a valve open to insure zero water pressure.
#6
12-02-15, 06:59 PM
Thanks everyone for the responses. I'll try to pull the small pipe tomorrow and take a look. I understand what everyone is referring to.
Out of curiousity guy48065, do you mean by "your description of the slow reacting gauge" the part of my original message that is talking about the pressure increasing on the gauge after the pump shuts off? Might make sense that this is a slow reacting gauge..... hadn't thought of that.
Additionally.... So, if the bladder were waterlogged, meaning water were to somehow get on top of the bladder I think.... and into the air part of the chamber. What you're saying is that if this were to happen, then the water weight on top of the bladder could conceivably weigh down the bladder at some pressure point so that the bladder would close off the outlet of the tank and thus stop the water flow? And this would be a function of how much water was on top of the bladder.... meaning the shut off poiint. Don't know why I'm having such a hard time getting my head wrapped around how a freaking water tank responds/ works with pressure switch and water flow.... It's not like I'm mechanically challenged or anything.
AllanJ Rough rule: "You do not let air out of the pressure tank. You let water out of the pressure tank." This has me confused as well..... guess because I can't really grasp the relationships. I'm gonna sleep on it tonight!
One more thing of mention while we're at it.
No matter what pressure I set the tank pressure to, right before the water stops flowing prior to the cut in pressure, I hear this woosh sound in the tank. By adding or removing air, I can move around what pressure the woosh happens at, but it's always there. Again, the only way that I'm able to eliminate the woosh is if I remove most of the pressure from the tank.
Does this help any more?
Thanks again.
Out of curiousity guy48065, do you mean by "your description of the slow reacting gauge" the part of my original message that is talking about the pressure increasing on the gauge after the pump shuts off? Might make sense that this is a slow reacting gauge..... hadn't thought of that.
Additionally.... So, if the bladder were waterlogged, meaning water were to somehow get on top of the bladder I think.... and into the air part of the chamber. What you're saying is that if this were to happen, then the water weight on top of the bladder could conceivably weigh down the bladder at some pressure point so that the bladder would close off the outlet of the tank and thus stop the water flow? And this would be a function of how much water was on top of the bladder.... meaning the shut off poiint. Don't know why I'm having such a hard time getting my head wrapped around how a freaking water tank responds/ works with pressure switch and water flow.... It's not like I'm mechanically challenged or anything.
AllanJ Rough rule: "You do not let air out of the pressure tank. You let water out of the pressure tank." This has me confused as well..... guess because I can't really grasp the relationships. I'm gonna sleep on it tonight!
One more thing of mention while we're at it.
No matter what pressure I set the tank pressure to, right before the water stops flowing prior to the cut in pressure, I hear this woosh sound in the tank. By adding or removing air, I can move around what pressure the woosh happens at, but it's always there. Again, the only way that I'm able to eliminate the woosh is if I remove most of the pressure from the tank.
Does this help any more?
Thanks again.
#7
12-03-15, 04:44 AM
Clogged pipes between the gauge and/or pressure switch and/or pressure tank itself and the rest of the system will cause those parts to react too slowly for the system to work properly.
If water gets above the bladder then the bladder has ruptured. Unpredictable things can then happen such as the bladder bottoming out and closing off the outlet (herniating) long before pump cut in pressure. But you cannot see that to prove that so the customary solution is to replace the pressure tank.
The primary means of sustaining pressure in the system is the air cushion in the pressure tank.
The same air in the pressure tank occupies different amounts of space depending on its pressure, which pressure will (should) increase to match the system pressure when you turn the pump on. The higher the pressure the smaller the air bubble/cushion. So the air cushion shrinks as the pump runs. The problem of water above the bladder is that there is less room available for the air cushion. A smaller air cushion to start with means the difference in size within pump cut in and cut out pressure is smaller which in turn means the pump will cycle on again when less water has been drawn.
If the preset pressure is too high then the bladder will bottom out before the pump cut in pressure is reached, even with a good tank and bladder. Then the pressure tank will no longer uphold the rest of the system pressure to match, and the latter can suffer momentary sudden drops. A clogged connection to the pressure tank will also result in the tank being unable to uphold the pressure of the rest of the system if faucets are turned on high.
There are some tests, which require a lot of time and can waste a lot of water (or you can save the water in buckets to water plants with or flush toilets with), to show whether the bladder has ruptured although not show whether the rupture is bad enough to cause other problems.
If water gets above the bladder then the bladder has ruptured. Unpredictable things can then happen such as the bladder bottoming out and closing off the outlet (herniating) long before pump cut in pressure. But you cannot see that to prove that so the customary solution is to replace the pressure tank.
The primary means of sustaining pressure in the system is the air cushion in the pressure tank.
The same air in the pressure tank occupies different amounts of space depending on its pressure, which pressure will (should) increase to match the system pressure when you turn the pump on. The higher the pressure the smaller the air bubble/cushion. So the air cushion shrinks as the pump runs. The problem of water above the bladder is that there is less room available for the air cushion. A smaller air cushion to start with means the difference in size within pump cut in and cut out pressure is smaller which in turn means the pump will cycle on again when less water has been drawn.
If the preset pressure is too high then the bladder will bottom out before the pump cut in pressure is reached, even with a good tank and bladder. Then the pressure tank will no longer uphold the rest of the system pressure to match, and the latter can suffer momentary sudden drops. A clogged connection to the pressure tank will also result in the tank being unable to uphold the pressure of the rest of the system if faucets are turned on high.
There are some tests, which require a lot of time and can waste a lot of water (or you can save the water in buckets to water plants with or flush toilets with), to show whether the bladder has ruptured although not show whether the rupture is bad enough to cause other problems.
Last edited by AllanJ; 12-03-15 at 05:51 AM.
#8
12-03-15, 07:21 AM
Out of curiousity guy48065, do you mean by "your description of the slow reacting gauge" the part of my original message that is talking about the pressure increasing on the gauge after the pump shuts off? Might make sense that this is a slow reacting gauge..... hadn't thought of that.
One more thing of mention while we're at it.
No matter what pressure I set the tank pressure to, right before the water stops flowing prior to the cut in pressure, I hear this woosh sound in the tank. By adding or removing air, I can move around what pressure the woosh happens at, but it's always there. Again, the only way that I'm able to eliminate the woosh is if I remove most of the pressure from the tank.
No matter what pressure I set the tank pressure to, right before the water stops flowing prior to the cut in pressure, I hear this woosh sound in the tank. By adding or removing air, I can move around what pressure the woosh happens at, but it's always there. Again, the only way that I'm able to eliminate the woosh is if I remove most of the pressure from the tank.
Are you pressurizing the bladder with the tank drained and a down-stream valve open to insure the system pressure = 0? Do you trust your air gauge? Sounds like you shouldn't trust your water pressure gauge so a test gauge that screws onto a tap would be a good idea. They're about $20 at box stores. If you have a "boiler drain" with a hose fitting on the tank tee this is the perfect place to attach the test gauge to watch the pump cut-in and cut-off pressure settings.
BTW you haven't actually stated your (probably unreliable) pressures...
