Problem with well pump or tank?


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Old 10-16-16, 11:23 AM
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Problem with well pump or tank?

I was checking my well to get it ready for winter and found a problem that I am having trouble figuring out.

welxtrol w-302 tank
red jacket 1 hp pump
new check valve.

the pressured down pressure in the tank is 28 psi. I have pretty decent pressure but the pump kicks in without only two and a half gallons of drawdown. the drawdown for the tank says it supposed to get 10 gallons at 30/50 I hear a gurling or draining noise coming from what sounds like the tank, but I am not sure which that or the pump. the tank is fairly old is it possible that it is filled up with corrosion or sediment? by fairly old i mean approx. 10 years. when I shut off all the outgoing valves to the houses it seems to hold pressure according to the gauge it stops at 58 and holds it pretty steady. but it still makes the gurgling or draining sound. any ideas or suggestions? If I forgot to add any needed info please ask. thanks
 
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Old 10-16-16, 11:41 AM
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The w302 tank is 86 gallons and the drawdown is shown in the picture from their chart.

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You said 30/50 system and the pump shuts off at 58psi. Sounds like the switch was readjusted.
When does the pump turn on..... what pressure ?
 
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Old 10-16-16, 11:49 AM
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Full Wel X sizing chart.

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Old 10-16-16, 11:56 AM
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sorry it is a wx203 tank and the cutout was supposed to be 48. rough day trying to figure this out. transposed my nos. anything else?
 
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Old 10-16-16, 12:18 PM
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Ok.... so at what pressure does the pump turn on ?
The chart is based on at least a 20psi pressure differential.
 
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Old 10-16-16, 12:25 PM
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turns on at 30psi and then runs to 50 and shuts off the pump
 
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Old 10-16-16, 01:06 PM
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I just ran the water pressure down to 0 and with no water pressure anywhere. I shook the tank and it still had water sloshing around inside it. is it possible that the water is not getting out and that is why my drawdown is so low?
 
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Old 10-16-16, 01:38 PM
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I don't know for sure. I would expect a little bit of water to be left in the bottom of the tank.
Since there is no air vent between the diaphragm and the bottom of the tank.... it may take a while to completely drain out all water.
 
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Old 10-16-16, 06:10 PM
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After you ran the water pressure down to 0 with the pump off and a cold faucet open, is the pressure tank still reading 28 PSI (for your 30 PSI pump start)?
 
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Old 10-17-16, 04:38 AM
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no the pressure gauge is down to 0.
 
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Old 10-17-16, 04:57 AM
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I'm having difficulty understanding what the original problem was with the pump,
 
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Old 10-17-16, 08:30 AM
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Retry the pressure down to 0 test and measure the pressure at the top of the pressure tank using a tire gauge.

Then bring the pressure tank back to 28 PSI with more air while the cold faucet is still open.

Learn how to press the tire gauge on squarely without getting a long hiss. Otherwise the tire gauge will show an incorrect reading and also you will lose tank pressure forcing you to add more air and check the pressure again before finishing the project.
 
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Old 10-17-16, 04:01 PM
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I brought the pressure down to zero on the water gauge and used a tire tester on the top schrader valve and it is 28 psi. the original problem Is I am only getting 2 and a half to 3 gallon of drawdown between the cut in and cut out. and after it cuts out the tank makes a funny noise like gurgling or draining. the pump seems to be all right. I have a check valve just before the tank that I already replaced. going to try a new tank I think.
 
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Old 10-17-16, 05:35 PM
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frank-

I wonder if it is possible that you are getting air pumped into the tank along with water. Don’t know if that is possible but it seems to me you could then hit the cut-off pressure and yet only have a few gallons in the tank, i.e., have a diminished drawdown.

Like you I have a check valve before the tank, and I know a check valve before the tank can mask leaks (I had a leak from the well to the house and didn’t know it). The tank will hold pressure because of the check valve which will not allow water to escape back towards the well – i.e., towards the leak.

I think I heard you can suck air into the piping if you have a leak in the service piping- but I’m not sure.

Anyway, I would allow the tank to be pumped up to the cutoff and then turn off the pump and shut the valve after the tank (assuming you have a valve after the tank as a shutoff for the house). I would then open the drain at the tank (assuming you have a drain there) and see if any air comes out with the water.

Don’t know if any of this makes sense. Maybe the experts can jump in.


Ahhh! Just thought of something wrong with that idea. I guess you would have experienced air at your faucets. Of well!!
 

Last edited by zoesdad; 10-17-16 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 10-17-16, 08:47 PM
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New test.

Leave the pump running. Let all of the air out of the pressure tank by holding down the center pin in the Schrader valve.

Careful! At some unpredictable point it is possible for water to come out with the air (and get all over the place). If this happens, the pressure tank bladder is bad and you need to replace the pressure tank.

If you do this test you will need to repeat the previous test (turn off pump, open a cold faucet, then add air (you will need lots) until the faucet stops letting out water and then hopefully get the tank air back to 28 PSI. Otherwise the tank will be too heavy to move and replace because it has lots of water.
 
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Old 10-17-16, 09:00 PM
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Allan..... you are losing me here with your confusing train of thought.
Allowing the tank to run with no pressure up top could rupture the bladder.

He said with 0 psi in the system..... there is 28 psi in the tank. That means there is 28psi in the bladder side or the air would leak down thru the piping.

As far as check valves... they should not be used topside in a well system. They are installed as a stopgap repair when the foot valve will not hold. Instead of picking up the pump or point and repairing it.... a check valve topside will keep the water from draining back down into the well. However.... it makes it extremely hard to prime a well.
 
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Old 10-18-16, 04:26 AM
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my initial thought was that I might have a bad check valve on the bottom of the submersible pump causing the strange sounds. Pjmax why should check valves not be used topside in a well submersible pump situation?
 
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Old 10-18-16, 04:40 AM
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another question is there a screen at the bottom end of a submersible pump that could be blocked causing the pump to pump air? I am getting no air out of any fixtures in the house.
 
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Old 10-18-16, 08:32 AM
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frank –

What I heard is that a check valve at the tank can definitely mask leaks and thus you can be pulling dirt and contaminants into the piping and not know it. Gould says you should have a check valve every 200 feet. This is from my Gould submersible pump manual:

On installations with a pitless adapter the top check valve should be below the pitless, not at the tank, as the discharge line should be pressurized back to the pitless.

On installations with well seals or well pits it is allowable to locate the top check valve near the tank.
This is Q/A from Wellmate:

Q. What is the proper way to install the WELLMATE pressure tank?

A. To install a WELLMATE pressure tank, the system should include at least one union for service, tank tee, gauge, check valve, pressure relief valve, drain valve, pressure switch, and a valve to isolate the service line from
When I redid my entire setup I maintained a check valve at the tank(I have a well pit). Who knows!
 
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Old 10-18-16, 08:55 AM
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Not an expert here but from what I hear the following issue is present. You have a 30/50 pressure switch. You have 28psi of air in the tank and since the pressure holds it appears the tank is OK. It is a 32 gallon tank that should give you around 10 gallons of water but you are only getting around 2.5 to 3 gallons of water.

Obviously something above is not correct since the laws of physics usually are and everything above is a law of physics. You have checked the air in the tank a couple of times. You know how large your pressure tank is, so my guess is that your cut in and cut out pressures are not correct. Do you have another water pressure guage that you can install or perhaps the type that connect to garden hose bib to verify that the water pressure on your guage is correct?
 
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Old 10-18-16, 03:34 PM
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I have a well pit and the check valve is just to the tank side of the well seal. I am going to put in a new tank tomorrow {the old one is 10 years old} I will put on a different gauge at that time and see what happens. the new tank is the same as the old one. I will keep you informed as to the progress.

I only have one check valve on the pump( built in) at 150 feet and one in the well pit. If the new parts don't fix the problem then I guess it is time to maybe pull the pump to check for leaks and the check valve on the end of the pump. I really appreciate all the feedback from you guys. thanks
 
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Old 10-19-16, 11:41 AM
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I changed the tank today and the old tank was so heavy I had to get the neighbor with a john deere yard tractor with a loader to lift it out. it had to weigh a couple hundred pounds. I had all the lines unhooked, lifted it out and nothing was coming out of the tank. I bored some holes around the outside and it was full of water. the new tank I put in only weighed 35 pounds or so. when I hooked it all back up with a new tank and gauge I get accurate readings on the gauge and approximately 8 gallons of water. not the 9.9 the manufacurer said but a lot better then the two and a half gallon I was getting. runs smooth, lots of pressure and good drawdown. thanks again for all the help. any questions let me know.


frank
 
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Old 10-19-16, 06:40 PM
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The old pressure tank's bladder had failed allowing water to get above it. Then during operation and last week's testing the bladder bottomed out, stopping the outflow with lots of water still above the bladder. With less space for air above, the drawdown becomes much less during the 30 to 50 PSI operating range.

You had no choice but to replace the tank.

The unhooked tank could have been made easier to carry out by turning it almost upside down, pressing in the Schrader valve, and letting out water. This will not be particularly fast.
 
 

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