Confirm my diagnosis?
#1
Confirm my diagnosis?
This is a two pump well system with an aeration tank. So this morning I heard the "house" pump short cycling and went to investigate. With a faucet open the pressure slowly drops as expected. When it got to the cut-on point (30/50 switch), pump started and the pressure rose slowly to about 40 psi. At that point the pressure jumped to 50 psi and the pump cut off. Let it cycle like that a couple of times to confirm. Decided to check tank pressure first (20 gal bladder). Turned off pump at breaker and opened a faucet. What usually happens is that the pressure drops to a point below cut-on and then the pressure drops immediately to "0" with no flow. THIS time it just very slowly slowly crept downwards with a slight flow from the open spigot, never did get to zero. After a few minutes, still showing a small amount of pressure on the gauge, I checked tank pressure and is was "0". Hmm. So I rolled out the air hose and started to put air into it. The pressure on the house side gauge went up. Never saw that before. Put the air side reading up to about 28# and turned pump back on. Now appears to be cycling more or less normally, but my suspicion is that tank, the bladder in the tank, has failed. It's 3 1/2 years old. What say the experts?

#2
Forum Topic Moderator
Not an expert and it's been a long time since I had a well but I wouldn't write it off just yet. I'd wait and see how long it takes to get water logged again, could be a year or more ......

Last edited by marksr; 04-24-17 at 05:30 AM. Reason: spelling
#3
Group Moderator
One easy check is to have the breaker off and leave a faucet with the cold water side open until the flow of water stops and leave it. Check the air in the tank. If it was zero then use your compressor to put air in. If the bladder is ruptured it will not hold air and you will hear the air rushing out of the faucet and the pressure tank will not come up in pressure. If you can get the pressure tank to hold air I would pressurize it properly then see how the system works over the next several days or weeks. If the problem returns after several days or weeks you may have a pinhole leak in the bladder. If the problem does not return then chalk it up to gremlins and go on with life until the problem returns.
#4
I'll do that. I got a bit impatient earlier and didn't wait for it to completely dump pressure. Will have a go now. Tank is 5 year warranty, but not sure how big a PITA a warranty claim will be ("sure, we'll warranty it; just send it in for us to look at.....").

#5
Originally Posted by the_tow_guy
". . . Tank is 5 year warranty, but not sure how big a PITA a warranty claim will be ("sure, we'll warranty it; just send it in for us to look at . . ."
As a Real Estate Broker, I've been in countless basements where the final resting place of Pressure Tanks that died an early a premature death has been right there in the basement . . . . lots of those pastel blue ones !
I don't think the manufacturers are very strict on having their Customers prove that the bladder was faulty; I don't think it's uncommon at all for them to fail . . . . the failure rate may be as high as 25%; maybe even more with the off-brands. My personal suspicion is that they are not all properly pressurized at the factory, and no one wants to spend time diagnosing a brand new item; so they just get tossed into that basement corner graveyard with their predecessors . . . . even though they could be resuscitated. Sad.
I think that if your can produce a receipt for a purchase within the recent past, you get a new tank !
(Or, you may be the exception that proves the rule ?)
#6
Not enough information to conclude that the tank bladder has failed.
Now that you went through the pressure tank pressure setting process and the system is now working correctly we have to assume that the problem is fixed for now.
I do not understand why the pressure would rise slowly from 28 PSI (pump cut in) to 40 PSI and then suddenly jump to 50 PSI (pump cut out), other than a clogged tube leading to the pressure gauge. If the tank is waterlogged (air cushion inside too small) then the pressure would rise rapidly but somewhat uniformly all the way from (in your case) 28 to 50.
There are several problems (not just one) that can happen to a bladder tank and each problem needs its own set of tests. The end result is that getting a sure diagnosis is very time consuming hence tank that are suspected of being bad are simply cast into the basement corner awaiting the junk man.
(copied from another forum) Here is another test. Leave the pump breaker on, all faucets closed, and the pump running while you hold the tank air valve (Schrader valve) open and let all of the air out. Carefully note when the air is all out and stops because the pressure will jump to maximum and the pump will come to a stonewall stop at that point and you must flip off the breaker. If a lot of water came out of the air valve during this process then the bladder is bad and the tank needs to be replaced.
At any rate you then need to turn off the pump breaker and open a cold faucet and put all the air back into the tank that that you let out. All that water (20? 30? gallons) must be expelled so a bike tire pump is going to take forever to repressurize the tank to the 28 or so PSI. Even if the pressure tank proved bad you need to expel the water so the tank won't be so heavy to carry after being disconnected.
Two pressure tanks (each preset to the 28 or so PSI) will not harm the system and will actually improve the performance compared with just one or like kind. So if you had to send the bad tank back for credit and had to buy another tank to use in the meantime, then all is not lost.
Now that you went through the pressure tank pressure setting process and the system is now working correctly we have to assume that the problem is fixed for now.
I do not understand why the pressure would rise slowly from 28 PSI (pump cut in) to 40 PSI and then suddenly jump to 50 PSI (pump cut out), other than a clogged tube leading to the pressure gauge. If the tank is waterlogged (air cushion inside too small) then the pressure would rise rapidly but somewhat uniformly all the way from (in your case) 28 to 50.
There are several problems (not just one) that can happen to a bladder tank and each problem needs its own set of tests. The end result is that getting a sure diagnosis is very time consuming hence tank that are suspected of being bad are simply cast into the basement corner awaiting the junk man.
(copied from another forum) Here is another test. Leave the pump breaker on, all faucets closed, and the pump running while you hold the tank air valve (Schrader valve) open and let all of the air out. Carefully note when the air is all out and stops because the pressure will jump to maximum and the pump will come to a stonewall stop at that point and you must flip off the breaker. If a lot of water came out of the air valve during this process then the bladder is bad and the tank needs to be replaced.
At any rate you then need to turn off the pump breaker and open a cold faucet and put all the air back into the tank that that you let out. All that water (20? 30? gallons) must be expelled so a bike tire pump is going to take forever to repressurize the tank to the 28 or so PSI. Even if the pressure tank proved bad you need to expel the water so the tank won't be so heavy to carry after being disconnected.
Two pressure tanks (each preset to the 28 or so PSI) will not harm the system and will actually improve the performance compared with just one or like kind. So if you had to send the bad tank back for credit and had to buy another tank to use in the meantime, then all is not lost.
Last edited by AllanJ; 04-24-17 at 06:55 AM.
#7
Thanks, guys. That funny pressure jump has me puzzled, too. So far after dumping all pressure and getting factory pressure into bladder it doesn't do the jump thing. I was thinking just coincidental issue with the gauge itself. I'm going to let it operate for a day or two and then recheck everything to see where we are. I like the idea of removing the Schrader valve to see how much water I get out, that had crossed my mind earlier, too, in deciding what troubleshooting route to take.
Tank was bought from Amazon, so no problem with a receipt, BUT when I bought it, it was sold by Amazon (amazon.com LLC). NOW when I go to the item's page it says only sold by third party sellers. Already chatted with Amazon and they said contact manufacturer, but if there's an issue or problem they will honor the warranty one way or another.
For now just going to let it go and see what transpires. Really have no great desire to replace it, bit of a PITA.
Tank was bought from Amazon, so no problem with a receipt, BUT when I bought it, it was sold by Amazon (amazon.com LLC). NOW when I go to the item's page it says only sold by third party sellers. Already chatted with Amazon and they said contact manufacturer, but if there's an issue or problem they will honor the warranty one way or another.

For now just going to let it go and see what transpires. Really have no great desire to replace it, bit of a PITA.
