sump pump drainage
#1
sump pump drainage
So my daughter has been in this house for just one year. She bought it from a house flipper. It passed all inspections. It's located on the top of the street which happens to be the highest point for both the front and rear of the house. During her first day of moving in the neighbor behind her comes knocking at the door complaining that her sump pump and drainage flows into her back yard. Note this situation has been like this for the past 20 to 25 years.
Today she receives a letter from the town that a formal complain has been made for the drainage from her property and remedial action must take place within 5 days.
I suspect this neighbor has made this complaint to all the previous owners prior to my daughter. But they see fresh meat and are using intimidation tactics to try and get my daughter to give them money to fix their property drainage.
My stance is water flows down hill and you can't stop nature. In fact little or no water discharge takes place from my daughters sump pit due to the fact they they happen to be the highest point and as a result the water will flow away from the house before it can get to the sump pit.
My daughter calls the town in a panic and explains the whole scenario. The clerk said don't worry about it and to call next week. They will come out and inspect the situation and there should be no fines and should be an easy fix if there is a fix to be made.
So my question is she responsible for the natural flow of water on a piece of property that has been standing for the past 20 years or so and has pasted all local inspection during all previous owners? She is the fourth owner.
Today she receives a letter from the town that a formal complain has been made for the drainage from her property and remedial action must take place within 5 days.
I suspect this neighbor has made this complaint to all the previous owners prior to my daughter. But they see fresh meat and are using intimidation tactics to try and get my daughter to give them money to fix their property drainage.
My stance is water flows down hill and you can't stop nature. In fact little or no water discharge takes place from my daughters sump pit due to the fact they they happen to be the highest point and as a result the water will flow away from the house before it can get to the sump pit.
My daughter calls the town in a panic and explains the whole scenario. The clerk said don't worry about it and to call next week. They will come out and inspect the situation and there should be no fines and should be an easy fix if there is a fix to be made.
So my question is she responsible for the natural flow of water on a piece of property that has been standing for the past 20 years or so and has pasted all local inspection during all previous owners? She is the fourth owner.

Top Answer
05-22-21, 05:41 AM
I actually took a course in "water law" which covered riparian/stream bank, littoral / lakes & ponds, stream flow, and, this topic 'drainage' during law school.
FIRST
The classic term is "common enemy doctrine" which holds that each person has a duty to allow water to flow off their uphill neighbor's property onto theirs, and a corresponding right to have water flow off their property onto their downhill neighbors property. You do have a right to change the drainage to allow you better use of your property (as do your uphill & downhill neighbors).
These rights do have some basic limits: the work must be 'reasonable and in good faith" and not "unnecessarily and with intent to harm or annoy".
Generally, you can't concentrate the flow of water from your property to create a problem (e.g. you can't grade your entire yard so all the rain water gushes out towards the basement door of the downhill neighbor you dislike).
Aside from that, landowners can do as they like to improve their property.
Two examples from Virginia Supreme Court- claims by downhill of increased flooding resulting from uphill adding gravel to raise a driveway and regrading the yard house were DISMISSED because the they were reasonable.
In contrast, claims of flooding over clearing the entire site of all vegetation, raising the elevation, failing to replant cover, and not using erosion controls, was UPHELD because this was not reasonable.
SECOND
In many developed areas, (including suburban areas with lots of paving and 'impervious surface') the 'common enemy rule' has been modified by local code to include "a duty to retain rainfall to recharge the groundwater." Usually this means retaining the first half inch of rainfall from a storm so it can soak in to recharge the aquifer/groundwater.
This also has a public benefit of lessening flash flooding. In many "green" suburban neighborhoods, the roof is impermeable, as are the driveway and the road, BUT surprisingly close-cut lawns are very close to 50% impermeable, so a heavy downpour will quickly cause extensive street and stream flooding.
FIRST
The classic term is "common enemy doctrine" which holds that each person has a duty to allow water to flow off their uphill neighbor's property onto theirs, and a corresponding right to have water flow off their property onto their downhill neighbors property. You do have a right to change the drainage to allow you better use of your property (as do your uphill & downhill neighbors).
These rights do have some basic limits: the work must be 'reasonable and in good faith" and not "unnecessarily and with intent to harm or annoy".
Generally, you can't concentrate the flow of water from your property to create a problem (e.g. you can't grade your entire yard so all the rain water gushes out towards the basement door of the downhill neighbor you dislike).
Aside from that, landowners can do as they like to improve their property.
Two examples from Virginia Supreme Court- claims by downhill of increased flooding resulting from uphill adding gravel to raise a driveway and regrading the yard house were DISMISSED because the they were reasonable.
In contrast, claims of flooding over clearing the entire site of all vegetation, raising the elevation, failing to replant cover, and not using erosion controls, was UPHELD because this was not reasonable.
SECOND
In many developed areas, (including suburban areas with lots of paving and 'impervious surface') the 'common enemy rule' has been modified by local code to include "a duty to retain rainfall to recharge the groundwater." Usually this means retaining the first half inch of rainfall from a storm so it can soak in to recharge the aquifer/groundwater.
This also has a public benefit of lessening flash flooding. In many "green" suburban neighborhoods, the roof is impermeable, as are the driveway and the road, BUT surprisingly close-cut lawns are very close to 50% impermeable, so a heavy downpour will quickly cause extensive street and stream flooding.
Last edited by Hal_S; 05-22-21 at 07:57 AM. Reason: edit
#2
Member
It passed all inspections
you can't stop nature
within 5 days
In my state this is the type of issue that would have to have been disclosed in the purchase agreement. If there was history of the issue documented anywhere and not disclosed the previous seller would be liable for the costs. If it comes to it, that might be a direction she might pursue.
#3
Their sump discharge is under their deck and will dissipate along the back yard. No visible trench has occurred due to the discharge and that pipe is about 30 feet from the property line. There would be more water draining over the hill from just a normal rainfall than from the sump pump. The back yard boarder is very wide, so I can see that during the spring and fall a large volume of water will drain down hill.
True the difference in elevation is at least 30 feet. So where is normal rain water going go? And just for the record this neighbor has a large above ground pool. I'm betting much of their water problem is from their pool.
Also it's the lady (if she can be called that) is the one making the complaint. No word or sound from the man of the house.
True the difference in elevation is at least 30 feet. So where is normal rain water going go? And just for the record this neighbor has a large above ground pool. I'm betting much of their water problem is from their pool.
Also it's the lady (if she can be called that) is the one making the complaint. No word or sound from the man of the house.
#4
Member
Yes, then without any visible indication of water flowing from the discharge onto their property I'd think the neighbor is going to be pretty hard up to convince the city of anything.
The city still has to due their due diligence and investigate unfortunately. What a crappy way to meet a new neighbor. Neighbor was pretty stupid to tip their hand and what they will be like so soon. Your daughter can now prepare her interactions in the future with that info.
The city still has to due their due diligence and investigate unfortunately. What a crappy way to meet a new neighbor. Neighbor was pretty stupid to tip their hand and what they will be like so soon. Your daughter can now prepare her interactions in the future with that info.
Norm201
voted this post useful.
#5
Member
I actually took a course in "water law" which covered riparian/stream bank, littoral / lakes & ponds, stream flow, and, this topic 'drainage' during law school.
FIRST
The classic term is "common enemy doctrine" which holds that each person has a duty to allow water to flow off their uphill neighbor's property onto theirs, and a corresponding right to have water flow off their property onto their downhill neighbors property. You do have a right to change the drainage to allow you better use of your property (as do your uphill & downhill neighbors).
These rights do have some basic limits: the work must be 'reasonable and in good faith" and not "unnecessarily and with intent to harm or annoy".
Generally, you can't concentrate the flow of water from your property to create a problem (e.g. you can't grade your entire yard so all the rain water gushes out towards the basement door of the downhill neighbor you dislike).
Aside from that, landowners can do as they like to improve their property.
Two examples from Virginia Supreme Court- claims by downhill of increased flooding resulting from uphill adding gravel to raise a driveway and regrading the yard house were DISMISSED because the they were reasonable.
In contrast, claims of flooding over clearing the entire site of all vegetation, raising the elevation, failing to replant cover, and not using erosion controls, was UPHELD because this was not reasonable.
SECOND
In many developed areas, (including suburban areas with lots of paving and 'impervious surface') the 'common enemy rule' has been modified by local code to include "a duty to retain rainfall to recharge the groundwater." Usually this means retaining the first half inch of rainfall from a storm so it can soak in to recharge the aquifer/groundwater.
This also has a public benefit of lessening flash flooding. In many "green" suburban neighborhoods, the roof is impermeable, as are the driveway and the road, BUT surprisingly close-cut lawns are very close to 50% impermeable, so a heavy downpour will quickly cause extensive street and stream flooding.
FIRST
The classic term is "common enemy doctrine" which holds that each person has a duty to allow water to flow off their uphill neighbor's property onto theirs, and a corresponding right to have water flow off their property onto their downhill neighbors property. You do have a right to change the drainage to allow you better use of your property (as do your uphill & downhill neighbors).
These rights do have some basic limits: the work must be 'reasonable and in good faith" and not "unnecessarily and with intent to harm or annoy".
Generally, you can't concentrate the flow of water from your property to create a problem (e.g. you can't grade your entire yard so all the rain water gushes out towards the basement door of the downhill neighbor you dislike).
Aside from that, landowners can do as they like to improve their property.
Two examples from Virginia Supreme Court- claims by downhill of increased flooding resulting from uphill adding gravel to raise a driveway and regrading the yard house were DISMISSED because the they were reasonable.
In contrast, claims of flooding over clearing the entire site of all vegetation, raising the elevation, failing to replant cover, and not using erosion controls, was UPHELD because this was not reasonable.
SECOND
In many developed areas, (including suburban areas with lots of paving and 'impervious surface') the 'common enemy rule' has been modified by local code to include "a duty to retain rainfall to recharge the groundwater." Usually this means retaining the first half inch of rainfall from a storm so it can soak in to recharge the aquifer/groundwater.
This also has a public benefit of lessening flash flooding. In many "green" suburban neighborhoods, the roof is impermeable, as are the driveway and the road, BUT surprisingly close-cut lawns are very close to 50% impermeable, so a heavy downpour will quickly cause extensive street and stream flooding.
Last edited by Hal_S; 05-22-21 at 07:57 AM. Reason: edit
#6
Hal, thank you very much. Very informative. I'm send a copy of this to the kids. Depending on what the town inspector says I told them to show him your reply and maybe send a copy to the neighbor.
But I doubt it will escalate to that level. I'm becoming more convinced that the neighbor's pool is leaking and causing their problems.
But I doubt it will escalate to that level. I'm becoming more convinced that the neighbor's pool is leaking and causing their problems.
#7
Member
Well, "got it off a discussion board" isn't likely to have much sway - here's a New York case to refer to, which has been edited to fit..
189 N.Y.S.2d 82 19 Misc.2d 167Clarence W. NOLAN and Ruth B. Nolan, Plaintiffs,
v.
Joseph J. CARR and Town of Fleming, Defendants.
Supreme Court, Cayuga County
July 28, 1959.
In this action, the plaintiffs seek to restrain the Town of Fleming from maintaining a drainage system along a public highway in a realty subdivision known as Forest Hills and discharging the water therefrom upon the premises owned by the plaintiffs.
...
The gravamen of plaintiffs' action is that the maintenance of the roadside ditches and culvert has produced on their land a flooded condition and a deposit of soil and dirt carried by the flood waters. Erosion of plaintiffs' land arising from the concentration of water through the culvert was neither pleaded nor proven.
From the evidence, the court determines that the plaintiffs' farm is at the bottom of a natural depression, which includes the Forest Hills Subdivision. The natural contour of the land lying north, west and east of plaintiffs' farm is such that surface waters thereon would tend to flow onto plaintiffs' land and be collected in a temporary pond or pool at the low point. This area is drained by field tile southerly to the Mobbs Road ditch. From the evidence, it appears that the land purchased by Carr lies within the natural watershed described above and that the construction of the highway with its accompanying ditches did not increase the size of that watershed. There is evidence from disinterested witnesses that a part of plaintiffs' land was flooded periodically before the construction of the road. Neighborhood children used a pond for winter ice skating and, on occasion, ducks were seen to frequent a pond on plaintiffs' farm. The elevation of the West Lake Road is such that the Town of Fleming would have no other means of disposing of surface waters except by the installation of a pump or excavation of ditches to impractical depths.
The evidence fails to show the existence of any natural watercourse with well defined boundaries. However, the size of the watershed which drains through plaintiffs' farm has not been increased. The effect of the highway with its ditches and culvert has been only to collect and discharge in mass that water which otherwise would flow onto plaintiffs' land in a diffused state.
Problems involving interference with the flow of surface waters have taxed the judicial wisdom of the courts in many states. It would appear that several divergent views exist, the first, the so-called 'common enemy doctrine' whereby each owner may dispose of surface water without liability to his neighbors and the second, the so-called 'civil law rule', that adjoining landowners are entitled to have the normal course of natural drainage maintained with the lower owner bound to accept and dispose of water which comes naturally to his land but likewise entitled not to have the normal drainage artifically changed or increased. (Annotation, 59 A.L.R.2d 422; 24 Minn.Law Review 891). It is doubtful whether either rule exists today in the extreme form stated. The courts of New York have had requent occasion to pass upon the subject of surface waters. The accepted rule was stated in Kossoff v. Rathgeb-Walsh, 3 N.Y.2d 583, 588, 170 N.Y.S.2d 789, 793, as follows: 'Under the common law adopted in this State, either proprietor can improve his land, according to his own desire in any manner to which the land is suited, without being liable to the abutting owner for change in the flowage of the surface water provided that he does not resort to drains, pipes or ditches.'
Collection of surface water by a municipality into a single channel in an increased volume so as to cause damage to an adjacent owner has been held actionable. Noonan v. City of Albany, 79 N.Y. 470; Mennito v. Town of Wayland, Sup., 56 N.Y.S.2d 654; Gibson v. State, 187 Misc. 931, 64 N.Y.S.2d 632; Kerhonkson Lodge, Inc. v. State, 4 A.D.2d 575, 168 N.Y.S.2d 56. The rule appears to be accurately stated in Farnham, Water and Water Rights, at page 966 as follows: 'Even courts which hold that the municipality is not liable for changing the flow of surface water so as to cast it onto adjoining property by changing the grade of its streets hold the municipality liable where, by the street improvements, water is collected in one place, and then discharged in a body onto adjoining land. If, for any reason, the water is gathered in a body, it must be taken care of and conducted safely to an outlet in such a way as to do no injury to private property.' And at page 965: 'A municipal corporation cannot collect surface water and discharge it in a mass onto the land 'of a private owner".
However, it is not the mere discharge in a body at a single point which creates liability. The plaintiffs must prove that the construction of the roads and ditches so increased the flow of surface water as to result in damages. Kerhonkson Lodge, Inc. v. State, 4 A.D.2d 575, 168 N.Y.S.2d 56; Rockwell v. State, 15 Misc.2d 1974, 182 N.Y.S.2d 422. A distinction was made in Melin v. Richman, 96 Conn. 686, 115 A. 426, 428, wherein the court said: 'The purport of this instruction is that when a landowner artifically collects water upon his own land, in order to avoid liability, he must cause it to be so diffused that it will pass from his lands upon that of his neighbor, as it would originally have done if not so collected.
This statement of law is not accurate in detail, because the diffusion required of artifically collected surface water need only to be to such an extent as to prevent this water from passing in an increased volume upon the neighbor's land to his substantial injury.'
In this case, the court fails to find that the continued maintenance of the ditches and sluice will cause any increase in the total amount of surface water that would otherwise flow upon plaintiffs' property. A ten inch culvert under the highway terminates upon lands owned by Carr twelve feet northerly of the plaintiffs' lands giving some opportunity for the diffusion of the water discharged through the pipe. Plaintiffs' neither pled nor proved that erosion of their land resulted. Evidence of loss of crops was unsatisfactory since it appeared that the entire crop had been poor that year. Under these circumstances, even though a technical legal right has been violated, should the court enjoin the continuance of the ditches and culvert?
In McCann v. Chasm Power Co., 211 N.Y. 301, 105 N.E. 416, the defendant had constructed a dam which raised water upon land owned by the defendant. The Court of Appeals recognized that a continuing trespass had been committed and that the plaintiff had the right to resort to equity for an injunction to prevent a multiplicity of suits yet the court denied the injunction on the grounds that it would do the plaintiff but comparatively little good and would produce a great public and private mischief. The decision was cited and followed in Howland v. Union Bag & Paper Corp., 156 Misc. 507, 282 N.Y.S. 357. That principle is applicable here. To require the defendant to eliminate its ditches and culvert would result in little benefit to the plaintiffs, but in great detriment to the defendant and to the public who use the highway. During periods of melting snow or cloudbursts the water would then accumulate on the north side of the highway with no other outlet than over the road and onto plaintiffs' land in about the same volume as now flows true the culvert. An Equity Court is not bound to decree an injunction where it would produce such great public mischief.
The Court recognizes that the plaintiffs' legal rights have been invaded but denies injunctive relief because the plaintiffs have not suffered nor been threatened with substantial injury and because the defendant and the public would be greatly harmed thereby. The plaintiffs may bring such other action as they may be advised on account of any injury to their property hereafter occurring.
...
v.
Joseph J. CARR and Town of Fleming, Defendants.
Supreme Court, Cayuga County
July 28, 1959.
In this action, the plaintiffs seek to restrain the Town of Fleming from maintaining a drainage system along a public highway in a realty subdivision known as Forest Hills and discharging the water therefrom upon the premises owned by the plaintiffs.
...
The gravamen of plaintiffs' action is that the maintenance of the roadside ditches and culvert has produced on their land a flooded condition and a deposit of soil and dirt carried by the flood waters. Erosion of plaintiffs' land arising from the concentration of water through the culvert was neither pleaded nor proven.
From the evidence, the court determines that the plaintiffs' farm is at the bottom of a natural depression, which includes the Forest Hills Subdivision. The natural contour of the land lying north, west and east of plaintiffs' farm is such that surface waters thereon would tend to flow onto plaintiffs' land and be collected in a temporary pond or pool at the low point. This area is drained by field tile southerly to the Mobbs Road ditch. From the evidence, it appears that the land purchased by Carr lies within the natural watershed described above and that the construction of the highway with its accompanying ditches did not increase the size of that watershed. There is evidence from disinterested witnesses that a part of plaintiffs' land was flooded periodically before the construction of the road. Neighborhood children used a pond for winter ice skating and, on occasion, ducks were seen to frequent a pond on plaintiffs' farm. The elevation of the West Lake Road is such that the Town of Fleming would have no other means of disposing of surface waters except by the installation of a pump or excavation of ditches to impractical depths.
The evidence fails to show the existence of any natural watercourse with well defined boundaries. However, the size of the watershed which drains through plaintiffs' farm has not been increased. The effect of the highway with its ditches and culvert has been only to collect and discharge in mass that water which otherwise would flow onto plaintiffs' land in a diffused state.
Problems involving interference with the flow of surface waters have taxed the judicial wisdom of the courts in many states. It would appear that several divergent views exist, the first, the so-called 'common enemy doctrine' whereby each owner may dispose of surface water without liability to his neighbors and the second, the so-called 'civil law rule', that adjoining landowners are entitled to have the normal course of natural drainage maintained with the lower owner bound to accept and dispose of water which comes naturally to his land but likewise entitled not to have the normal drainage artifically changed or increased. (Annotation, 59 A.L.R.2d 422; 24 Minn.Law Review 891). It is doubtful whether either rule exists today in the extreme form stated. The courts of New York have had requent occasion to pass upon the subject of surface waters. The accepted rule was stated in Kossoff v. Rathgeb-Walsh, 3 N.Y.2d 583, 588, 170 N.Y.S.2d 789, 793, as follows: 'Under the common law adopted in this State, either proprietor can improve his land, according to his own desire in any manner to which the land is suited, without being liable to the abutting owner for change in the flowage of the surface water provided that he does not resort to drains, pipes or ditches.'
Collection of surface water by a municipality into a single channel in an increased volume so as to cause damage to an adjacent owner has been held actionable. Noonan v. City of Albany, 79 N.Y. 470; Mennito v. Town of Wayland, Sup., 56 N.Y.S.2d 654; Gibson v. State, 187 Misc. 931, 64 N.Y.S.2d 632; Kerhonkson Lodge, Inc. v. State, 4 A.D.2d 575, 168 N.Y.S.2d 56. The rule appears to be accurately stated in Farnham, Water and Water Rights, at page 966 as follows: 'Even courts which hold that the municipality is not liable for changing the flow of surface water so as to cast it onto adjoining property by changing the grade of its streets hold the municipality liable where, by the street improvements, water is collected in one place, and then discharged in a body onto adjoining land. If, for any reason, the water is gathered in a body, it must be taken care of and conducted safely to an outlet in such a way as to do no injury to private property.' And at page 965: 'A municipal corporation cannot collect surface water and discharge it in a mass onto the land 'of a private owner".
However, it is not the mere discharge in a body at a single point which creates liability. The plaintiffs must prove that the construction of the roads and ditches so increased the flow of surface water as to result in damages. Kerhonkson Lodge, Inc. v. State, 4 A.D.2d 575, 168 N.Y.S.2d 56; Rockwell v. State, 15 Misc.2d 1974, 182 N.Y.S.2d 422. A distinction was made in Melin v. Richman, 96 Conn. 686, 115 A. 426, 428, wherein the court said: 'The purport of this instruction is that when a landowner artifically collects water upon his own land, in order to avoid liability, he must cause it to be so diffused that it will pass from his lands upon that of his neighbor, as it would originally have done if not so collected.
This statement of law is not accurate in detail, because the diffusion required of artifically collected surface water need only to be to such an extent as to prevent this water from passing in an increased volume upon the neighbor's land to his substantial injury.'
In this case, the court fails to find that the continued maintenance of the ditches and sluice will cause any increase in the total amount of surface water that would otherwise flow upon plaintiffs' property. A ten inch culvert under the highway terminates upon lands owned by Carr twelve feet northerly of the plaintiffs' lands giving some opportunity for the diffusion of the water discharged through the pipe. Plaintiffs' neither pled nor proved that erosion of their land resulted. Evidence of loss of crops was unsatisfactory since it appeared that the entire crop had been poor that year. Under these circumstances, even though a technical legal right has been violated, should the court enjoin the continuance of the ditches and culvert?
In McCann v. Chasm Power Co., 211 N.Y. 301, 105 N.E. 416, the defendant had constructed a dam which raised water upon land owned by the defendant. The Court of Appeals recognized that a continuing trespass had been committed and that the plaintiff had the right to resort to equity for an injunction to prevent a multiplicity of suits yet the court denied the injunction on the grounds that it would do the plaintiff but comparatively little good and would produce a great public and private mischief. The decision was cited and followed in Howland v. Union Bag & Paper Corp., 156 Misc. 507, 282 N.Y.S. 357. That principle is applicable here. To require the defendant to eliminate its ditches and culvert would result in little benefit to the plaintiffs, but in great detriment to the defendant and to the public who use the highway. During periods of melting snow or cloudbursts the water would then accumulate on the north side of the highway with no other outlet than over the road and onto plaintiffs' land in about the same volume as now flows true the culvert. An Equity Court is not bound to decree an injunction where it would produce such great public mischief.
The Court recognizes that the plaintiffs' legal rights have been invaded but denies injunctive relief because the plaintiffs have not suffered nor been threatened with substantial injury and because the defendant and the public would be greatly harmed thereby. The plaintiffs may bring such other action as they may be advised on account of any injury to their property hereafter occurring.
...
#8
Member
Isn't it nice to have a lawyer around when you need one? And his consultation rates are great.
#10
So my daughter has been in this house for just one year. She bought it from a house flipper. It passed all inspections. It's located on the top of the street which happens to be the highest point for both the front and rear of the house. During her first day of moving in the neighbor behind her comes knocking at the door complaining that her sump pump and drainage flows into her back yard. Note this situation has been like this for the past 20 to 25 years.
Your daughter has been living there for a year. now.
Then the town sent your daughter a letter saying a formal complaint has been made.
What did your daughter do during all this past year to help address the problem? Did she make any changes or improvements (such as regrading along the foundation) on her own property that might have increased the flow down to her neighbor(s) and aggravated the problem?.
Hopefully your daughter saved all of the paperwork and emails.
Could the water be channeled away, perhaps using a surface French drain (gravel filled ditch) near the property line so it does not run right at the neighbor's house?
At any rate, now that town has a fresh complaint, any further remedial action should be run by the town first to make sure no other neighbors have reason to join in..
Me? I would not drop everything to address this issue but would make a few phone calls or emails to City Hall, acknowledging the complaint but without first researching details to make a single email that is comprehensive and "complete." It would be worthwhile to point out (but not spend many sentences on) the situation being that way for may years if that indeed was the case..
Last edited by AllanJ; 05-22-21 at 11:12 AM.
#11
Absolutely nothing was done. There is nothing to be done. Rain falls and snow melts and gravity takes over. The neighbor made an in person complaint, not even introducing herself on the day daughter moved in. She yelled and stomped away. Until now no paper work or calls were made to record. No plumbing was change as far as drainage is concerned. Her sump pump works at minimum since she is the highest point so little water flows into the pit, but in turn flows down hill, both front and back.
It could but at who's expense and why not on the neighbors side of the fence. Lot's of things can be done and lots of money can be spent. Anything can be changed or fixed.
Could the water be channeled away, perhaps using a surface French drain (gravel filled ditch) near the property line so it does not run right at the neighbor's house?
#12
Member
Originally Posted by Norm201

It could but at who's expense and why not on the neighbors side of the fence. Lot's of things can be done and lots of money can be spent. Anything can be changed or fixed.
I'd follow that up with a "PRACTICAL SOLUTION" which the down hill neighbor "CAN'T REFUSE".
I'd offer to split the cost of a load of gravel to create a "level spreader berm" on the property line.
A simple gravel 'level spreader' berm will ensure that all runoff from the uphill property is distributed as "sheet flow" across the downhill property.
Based on what the OP said, the downhill neighbor will probably never accept this simple practical solution, BUT that ALSO means that the town will have a VERY simple choice - Uphill Neighbor proposed a simple, reasonable solution. Downhill neighbor demands a complex, unworkable solution.
Proposing a "level spreader" at the property boundary fixes any possible problem, casts the uphill neighbor as reasonable and acting in good faith, and sets a trap if the downhill neighbor is unreasonable and comes across as more interested in whining about the problem than interested in fixing the problem.
#13
Two things. Newly weds can't afford it. And the whole back yard is lined with very large trees. Those tree will take precedence over any other monies spent. At some point hey need to come down. We're talking maybe in the area of $7000 to $10,000 cost to remove trees.
#15
Member
Be careful. Tree removal can be construed as aggravating a water problem since they will not be there to suck up some of the moisture. Get on record with the authorities that the water "problem" is not a problem as Hal suggested before you cut any trees and give the noisy neighbor more reason to complain.
I had a situation with a similar neighbor who created a water problem in her own driveway by cutting into the hill for a garage. She claimed that her surface water running from the back of the garage to her driveway was coming from my adjacent french drain even though my drain is 4 feet lower than her driveway. and 10n feet lower than her garage. The City made HER put in storm drainage at the top and bottom of her driveway to keep the water from running into the street.
I had a situation with a similar neighbor who created a water problem in her own driveway by cutting into the hill for a garage. She claimed that her surface water running from the back of the garage to her driveway was coming from my adjacent french drain even though my drain is 4 feet lower than her driveway. and 10n feet lower than her garage. The City made HER put in storm drainage at the top and bottom of her driveway to keep the water from running into the street.
Last edited by 2john02458; 05-22-21 at 01:23 PM. Reason: D*&*% spell check
Norm201
voted this post useful.
#16
Yes I thought of that. If and when she takes down some of the trees (believe it or not there are about 15 of them, and many are at least 12" to 18" in diameter), she should get something in writing from the town that will allow her to take action without consequence if possible. Another problem is that all the power lines run above ground in the back yards and in between those large trees.
#17
Member
Norm - I just had one 30" maple removed. Cost $1800 w/o a stump grind. I hope tree removal is a lot more reasonable in that neighborhood.
#18
Seeing that this (letter from the town) is the first written communication you got from anybody, I say it would be appropriate to say things, write things but not feel be obligated to do things.
If you have not already done so, write a letter explaining that you just moved in and you did not do anything to the water issue and that the water issue has been the same for the 20 odd years (if that is the case) . (Don't use the phone, you want preserved evidence that your communicaiton took place.)
New idea from me. I would say I would be happy to havr the town engineer or town inspector take a look but not add more details in the letter. I would then sit back and let him or her make the first suggestion or proposal on how to proceed and then a little back and forth from there..
If you have not already done so, write a letter explaining that you just moved in and you did not do anything to the water issue and that the water issue has been the same for the 20 odd years (if that is the case) . (Don't use the phone, you want preserved evidence that your communicaiton took place.)
New idea from me. I would say I would be happy to havr the town engineer or town inspector take a look but not add more details in the letter. I would then sit back and let him or her make the first suggestion or proposal on how to proceed and then a little back and forth from there..
#19
Allan, That is pretty much what is going to happen. She must contact the town on Monday to come out and look at the lay of the land. As was mentioned, the town must do due diligence and investigate the complaint. So an inspector will come at do his thing sometime this week.
Just a small correction, I titled this thread sump pump drainage. That is incorrect. It should be titled land water shed drainage.
Just a small correction, I titled this thread sump pump drainage. That is incorrect. It should be titled land water shed drainage.
#20
Member
Originally Posted by Norm201

Dry wood doesn't arc powerlines.
If the trees have powerlines running through them, the tree company will chunk" rather than "thunk".
"Chunk" means that they drop the limbs, then cut 16" rounds as the climber comes down.
"Thunk" means that they drop the limbs, then drop large sections, sometimes the entire tree, in a single cut.
#21
Member
If the power lines belong to the power company (and not privately owned by an HOA or developer) there should be an easement granting them access. Usually in that case the power company is responsible for maintenance and will trim trees to prevent interference with or damage to the lines
#22
Yes the utility will take care of the wires and tree trimming. But in reality she needs to get rid of those trees. In fact there is a racoon living in one of them that the neighbors immediate neighbors call their "pet". Apparently been there for years.
#23
Everyone suggests that the sump pump discharge should be at least 20 feet from your house except it should not be looking like it is dumping into your neighbor's land. If your ground slopes away from your house enough then the sump pump discharge can end somewhat closer to the house.
Dumping on your side of your trees (if applicable) should be acceptable.
Dumping on your side of your trees (if applicable) should be acceptable.
#25
Follow up time.
So the town came by this morning and left a message on my daughter's phone indicating absolutely nothing wrong on property.
So she has a crazy neighbor. Good thing it's behind her and with a non-connecting street.
Thanks to all who commented, especially Hal for the legal terms and explanation. "He's a lawyer, but not not my lawyer."
So the town came by this morning and left a message on my daughter's phone indicating absolutely nothing wrong on property.
So she has a crazy neighbor. Good thing it's behind her and with a non-connecting street.
Thanks to all who commented, especially Hal for the legal terms and explanation. "He's a lawyer, but not not my lawyer."


2john02458
voted this post useful.
#26
Great everything turned out good. With the trees ask the power company if they will completely remove the trees. Sometimes they will do it so they don't have to come back and trim them any more.
2john02458,
Norm201
voted this post useful.